Monday, February 28, 2011

Half-Wits and Crazy People

The fact that we live in interesting times is an understatement. The death of the America you and I grew up in - the America our grandkids will never even know - may be a grim and depressing thing to contemplate, but witnessing the demise of this once-great nation sure as hell ain't boring. Truth be told, it has been quite entertaining! Thanks to television and the internet, we can all have a front row seat as we behold the spectacle of the United States of America being completely and utterly destroyed from within. Isn't technology neat?

Welcome to the United States of China.

The bottom line is this: Your country is doomed. And the sad fact that everyone (with the exception of yours truly) is ignoring
is that there is no realistic way out of the proverbial hole we have dug ourselves into. Add that to the fact that the plutocracy has purchased the media, all of the Republican party, most of the Democratic party - and the Supreme Court. They now control not only the the message but the electorate as well. The right wing propaganda machine rings the bell and the people salivate like Pavlov's dogs. Take this to the bank: Americans will continue to stupidly vote against their own best interests, and the implosion will only continue to compound itself - year after year.

WE'RE SPIRALING DOWNWARD! WHEEEEEEEEEEE!

And do you want to hear the punch line? I'm okay with it. There is a certain kind of schadenfreude that comes with seeing a people getting exactly what they deserve, and I imagine that I'm going to love every minute of it. It's also a much better thing to come to terms with the shit storm that is just around the corner than to delude oneself into believing that some nameless secular messiah is going to lead us all to the beloved Candy Land of our fantasies. A lot of us (myself included) made that mistake with Barack Obama and our hopes exploded right in our faces. It's almost like anticipating that knock-knock-knocking sound to be Winston Churchill - only to open the door to find Neville Chamberlain standing there - utterly clueless and befuddled. And unless Obama is challenged in the primaries by the ghost of Eleanor Roosevelt, I'm afraid we're stuck with him.

In times such as these I have seriously considered heroin addiction but it's just too damned expensive.

The few pockets of hope on the horizon shouldn't deceive us into thinking that things might change for the better any time soon. Yes, Glenn Beck's ratings are tanking and he's probably months away from being canceled. Incredibly his act has gotten too weird for Rupert Murdoch even. Yes, the people are rising up in Wisconsin against the
rape of worker's rights, but the GOP is hell-bent on destroying the Union Movement and I'm betting that they'll probably succeed in the end. Yes, Sarah Palin is self-destructing before our very eyes, but there are a hundred or more other half-witted extremists ready to take her place once she exits the national stage.

Let's not allow these little gifts to distract our attention from the larger picture, okay? The nasty truth of the matter is that Corporate America overthrew our government a long time ago - and I'll prove it to you:

A relative handful of high rollers in the banking and investment industries made billions in the last decade looting the pensions of regular, working class Americans. Why is it that Bernie Madoff is the only one of these hideous bastards to go to
prison thus far? The answer is so obvious it boarders on hilarity: He was the only one of the bunch whose victims were exclusively the rich and powerful. They're sending us a none-too-subtle message here:

FUCK THE PEOPLE - BUT DON'T YOU DARE MESS WITH YOUR CORPORATE MASTERS - CAPISH?

Yeah, our government got overthrown a long time ago. Stop kidding yourselves. And if the movement that is now growing in Wisconsin decides to take its act on a nationwide tour, watch how fiercely and violently Corporate Power reacts to it. As Lenny Bruce would say, "There's gonna be a lot of dues, Jim." Yeah. A lot of dues and a lot of blood. When Governor Walker of Wisconsin was busted last week in the g
reatest political prank of the decade, he told a person pretending to be one of the uber right wing Koch Brothers that they had "talked about" sending hired goons into the crowd to stir up some violence. It's only a matter of time before mere words are transformed into deeds.

The plutocrats are determined to eradicate the rights of working peo
ple - and if that means the murder of two-thousand or more innocent human beings - tough shit, baby. If you're naive enough to believe that something that atrocious could never happen in this country, think again. If you think I'm talking like a crazy person here, it's obvious that you don't know a blessed thing about the history of the American Labor Movement. Mass murder committed on the orders of "the captains of industry" Is not really a new concept. It has happened before and if the rabble forget their place, it will happen again. Watch your ass, Bubbah.

Just look what's happening at this very moment! After thirty years of economic plunder by the richest one percent, whom are we now being told is responsible for the financial carnage that resulted - the very people who are in fact responsible for it??? Nah! That would be way too easy. Then who's to be held accountable for the hard times? Hold onto your sides: It's the unions. That's right! The teacher's union in particular. The people who are educating your kids are trying to destroy this grand and glorious land of ours! They're Communists! CAN I GET A WITNESS???

But seriously, folks....

"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."

- Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

BAD NEWS:

Justice Brandeis is dead and he's not coming back. Organized criminals rule America. This is the way it's going to be from now on. Get used to living in a country in ruins. On that happy note....

Tom Degan
tomdegan@frontiernet.net

SUGGESTED READING:

If you don't re
ad another thing all week long, read Matt Taibbi's latest piece in Rolling Stone Magazine. If you are not in a blind fucking rage after reading it, you can't possibly be human - or a good American - or both. Here's a link:

Why Isn't Wall Street In Jail?

Although I think Taibbi is as good as they get, it's a bad title. "Jail" is where you go when you've had one-too-many on a Saturday night and you accidentally back your car into the plate glass window of the local delicatessen.

Why Isn't Wall Street In a Maximum Security Federal Prison?

Much better.

America the beautiful. It was nice while it lasted.

BREAKING NEWS - 10:20AM

It has just been announced that Frank Buckles, the last surviving American veteran of World War One has died of natural causes at his home in Charles Town, West Virginia. He was 110 years old. This, my friends, is the end of an era. The "war to end all wars" is no longer a living memory:

Real all about it.

AFTERTHOUGHT, 3/1/11, 5:10AM:

My brother Jeff just posted this on his Facebook page via the nice folks over at MoveOn.Org:

"A public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO sit at a table with a dozen cookies on a plate. The CEO reaches across, takes eleven of the cookies, looks at the tea partier and says, 'Watch out for that Union guy: He wants a piece of your cookie.'"

Well now! That sums it up fairly neatly, does it not?

169 Comments:

At 6:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Tom! This is my first response to your posts of which I've been reading and enjoy immensely for quite some time! Probably because we are products of the same era!

I'm curious. What finally did it for you with Obama? It began for me with the back room deal with Big PHARMA. I kind of thought then I had not gotten what I bargained for.

Anyway, I though it would be a good topic to write about, and besides you left your loyal readers hanging here! Those were the strongest words I've heard you say about Obama yet!

 
At 9:00 AM, Blogger Cosmic Navel Lint said...

Another good piece, Tom. Thought this may interest you - apropos the above:

"Will 'Chindia' rule the world in 2050, or America after all?"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8350548/Will-Chindia-rule-the-world-in-2050-or-America-after-all.html

 
At 11:08 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Only the willfully ignorant can't understand that our government has been taken over by Big Money. And only the willfully hateful will continue the fascistic scapegoating of liberals for what that corporatist government does.

Included here are the words the Reich Wing opposes with all its might:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


“Promote and provide for the general Welfare”. Why do “conned-servatives” hate the Constitution? They are a cult.

 
At 12:02 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

I'd fear Big Government a lot more than Big Insurance or Big Pharma.

America is long made of Corporations, the Great Auto industry before the Unions brought it down, Oil, Farming, sorry. Last thing we need is for the government to own these corporations.

Yes, automakers from Ford to Toyota have made dangerous automobiles before and they need to be watched.

Government should protect the people with the Military and after that, have greatly reduced responsibilities.

I wonder why some would turn against Obama now, DOMA? Obama is building a rainbow coalition, Unions, etc.

I've nothing against Unions for the people but no BS, some Unions and we know from people like Jimmy Hoffa have been involved in organized crime, Mafia people got Union membership in NYC so they could have cheap health insurance.

Unions should not collect membership dues from public employees and then contribute to political candidates as well. As everyone is hearing FDR and George Meany said that governmental employees should not get collective bargaining.

 
At 2:13 PM, Anonymous boltok said...

Some go to jail:

http://www.loansafe.org/former-taylor-bean-whitaker-treasurer-pleads-guilty-to-1-9-billion-bank-fraud-scheme

Fannie and Freddie are the most corrupt and costly bankruptcies to the taxpayer. This is really where the investigations should start.

I will spare you the repeated posting of the idiotic defense by democrats over these self enrichment vehicles. Everyone complains about walmart and exxon, at least they bring you meat at less than $2 a pound and gas at less than bottled water.

You should be bitching about big government.

 
At 2:51 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Just imagine how much worse it will become now that the US Government works for Big Insurance and Big Energy and Big Pharma. We know that reps and senators owe their elections to Big Money campaign donations and push legislation writen by lobbyists.

If Big Money has more power than government, then there will be no more rules for the powerful to follow. Big Money will become the lords and we will become serfs if the neo-feudalism of corporatocracy wins over democracy.

How long will our country last when every corporation gets away with what the Wall Street banksters pulled off. That is inevitable on the course we are taking.

It's a good thing the Constitution provides the government with more authority than just a military. The founders wanted a lawful civil society.

Unions are victims of the mob, not partners. It would be much worse if the Right has its way and demolishes the Department of Labor. They cooperate with the Justice Department in rooting out the mob.

 
At 3:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And how many murders have been committed on the orders of organized crime/labor unions throughout their reign of terror, as they systematically chipped away at the rock that once was this great nation? Sure, once upon a time unions were necessary. But, as with everything, power corrupts, and they have far too much power. Good riddance to them.

 
At 4:23 PM, Blogger Ellis D., Esq. said...

So the labor force in Amerika shouldn't organize ?? Let's just leave it the hands of the generous, benevolent good hearted employers to voluntarily fork over a fair living wage to the workers ?? That hasn't worked yet and is surely not going to work now. More profit to be made outsourcing jobs and importing cheap labor. Profits before all else, the end justifies the means and as Gekko said " Greed is good !! " Greed is why those profits are not fairly shared with the workers who produce them. That in turn is why workers need unions whether formal or otherwise. The strength is in the unity of large numbers of workers. UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL !!!

 
At 4:24 PM, Blogger P M Prescott said...

The unions didn't destroy the auto industry. Subsidized foreign products that undercut the cost of American cars were one nail in the coffin, bad leadership cutting corners on costs producing shoddy products in the 70's and 80's were another, closing American factories and opening them up in other countries was a third. When 90% of the American economy can't afford a new car, or gas to run the one they have, or buy the new fangled cell phone or video game or flat screen tv because they've all lost their jobs. What will happen to those corporations then?

 
At 5:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last week, we heard that State Rep. Gordon Hintz (D-Oshkosh) had been busted in a prostitution sting.

State Rep. Gordon Hintz was issued a municipal citation in Appleton earlier this month for violating a city sexual misconduct ordinance.

Appleton police said the citation was issued Feb. 10 in conjunction with an ongoing investigation of Heavenly Touch Massage Parlor, 342 W. Wisconsin Ave., in Appleton. Police searched the business and a nearby residence in the 1300 block of North Division Street Jan. 28, after investigators had staked out the properties for several days after receiving a tip.

**

Last Friday.... after the Assembly voted to engross the Budget Repair Bill, Hintz turned to a female colleague, Rep. Michelle Litjens and said: "You are F***king dead!"

New tone, indeed. Will he be held accountable?

 
At 5:22 PM, Blogger Darlene said...

I am old enough to remember how hard the working man had to fight just to get a decent wage. Before the unions were in existance the greedy corporations made their laborers work 12 hours a day,6 days a week (sometimes 7), gave no overtime pay (but demanded overtime when it suited to owners), had children working in factories, provided no health insurance, (docking the workers if they were home sick) and no compensation if injured on the job.

Paid vacations? Sick leave? Forget it. Working conditions were often dangerous and unsanitary.

Unions changed all of that by giving power to the workers and, as a result, created the middle class.

Whether you ever belonged to a union or not, you have them to thank for the best working conditions in our nation's history. I don't think the most rabid defenders of the corporate world would want to return to the working conditions prior to unions.

 
At 6:32 PM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

As usual, Darlene, you have hit the nail squarely on the head perfectly and effortlessly. I must take issue with one thing you wrote however:

"I don't think the most rabid defenders of the corporate world would want to return to the working conditions prior to unions."

Oh, yes they do, Darlene. That's exactly what these despicable people are aiming for. Count on it, my beloved friend.

Love and Peace,

Tom Degan

 
At 7:04 PM, Anonymous boltok said...

One look at Richard Trumka and you will know everything you need to know about unions. If that is labor's public face, how horrible the underbelly.

 
At 7:10 PM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

Boltok....

As I said yesterday, your postings are getting more idiotic by the minute - this latest one proves it beyond doubt.

What is it you're trying to tell us here> That because Trumka is not "movie star handsome" he must be deficient in some undefined way?

I try to ignore the hundreds of examples of stupidity that are posted on this site every year, but you really ought to stand up and take a bow, fella.

 
At 7:33 PM, Blogger charles moore said...

Tom, for those who are too young to know or remember, they should read the magnificent book Working by the late Studs Terkel.

 
At 7:50 PM, Blogger claytonbigsbypa said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 7:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jefferson's Guardian:

Are you a member of the ISO (International Socialist Organization)? If not, what is your opinion of them?

http://socialistworker.org/Featured/MeaningOfMarxism

 
At 8:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

THE ABCs of MARXISM from the ISO

Marxism is more relevant than ever
Marx's ideas are alive because his indictment of capitalism--that it is a class society that creates great wealth for the few at the expense of the many, that it is prone to economic crisis and war--continues to be confirmed on a daily basis.

"Not a dogma, but a guide to action"
"The reports of my death," wrote Mark Twain, "are greatly exaggerated." The same could be said of Marxism as a body of ideas.

Proving Marxist ideas into practice
What is there to recommend Marxism over any other view of society and how to change it?

The real Marxist tradition
To Karl Marx, and generations of socialists after him, socialism wasn't about state ownership or party loyalty, but the self-emancipation of the working class.

Socialism: What will it look like?
"We know what you're against. What are you for?" is a question that we socialists get a lot.

Isn't socialism about conformity?
Mass-market capitalism imposes conformity on the majority--at work, where we are expected to follow strict rules, and outside it, where we are treated as "mass consumers."

The economics of laziness
No one can deny that people cease to be bored as soon as they are engaged in an activity they enjoy and are not compelled to do. Socialism eliminates these compulsions.


Can individuals change history?
Most history books treat historical change as the accomplishment of great men (and an occasional woman). The opposite, though less popular, view is that history follows a path which no individual can influence. Both ideas are mistaken.

Can ordinary people run society?
Often, it is workers' hard-won, first-hand knowledge that engineers and managers use to figure out how to improve production--to squeeze as much out of workers as possible.

What leads workers to fight together?
The same conditions that drive workers to compete with one another for jobs and that appear to impose themselves as "natural laws," also propel workers into collective struggle--into organizing and fighting back.

Alienation in capitalist society
The term "alienation" in normal usage refers to a feeling of separateness--of being alone and apart from others. But for Karl Marx, alienation was an economic and social condition of capitalist society.

 
At 8:05 PM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

It doesn't get much better than dear old Studs, Charles. I envy the fact that you lived in Chicago when he was thriving.

All the best,

Tom

 
At 10:05 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Tom, you said, and said correctly...

"I try to ignore the hundreds of examples of stupidity that are posted on this site every year, but you really ought to stand up and take a bow, fella."

Boltok, this one's for you...

Back to Tom...

Guess I shouldn't feed the trolls, huh? It only goes to their thighs.

 
At 10:35 PM, Blogger jurassicpork said...

Excuse me, I have to go out and commandeer a high rise on Wall Street with my trusty M14...

 
At 5:23 AM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

Courtesy of the nice folks over at MoveOn.org:

"A public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO sit at a table with a dozen cookies on a plate. The CEO reaches across, takes eleven of the cookies, looks at the tea partier and says, 'Watch out for that Union guy: He wants a piece of your cookie.'"

 
At 6:06 AM, Anonymous boltok said...

TD
Your an expert on labor. Out of curiousity, what jobs have you ever held? What were the working conditions? How did the corporation take advantage of you? Or do you have the luxury of being an armchair socialist because of the industriousness of others? Did you ever start or run a business? Did you ever sign a payroll check? Did you ever remitt payroll taxes?

Trumka: history of corruption, vulagarity and murder, in addition to being a fat sloppy pig.

http://www.nrtw.org/files/nrtw/Trumka%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

 
At 6:29 AM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

History of murder? Tell me, how much vodka is in that Kool-Aid your sippin, pal?

 
At 10:16 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

It's interesting how deep reverence of wealth and the wealthy blinds people to the contributions of labor, as if the wealth was earned solely by the guy on top and compensation was pure generosity towards the useless underlings.

"Industriousness of others" means the elite, of course, never the labor of the working class.

Corporations never take advantage of workers, never offshore jobs, never commit fraud or subvert democracy...well at least never suffer negative consequences due to their super personhood in courts and ownership of politicians by "free speech" money that the rest of us don't have.

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Abe Lincoln's First Message to Congress December 3, 1861

He would never be allowed in the Republican Party today.

 
At 10:38 AM, Anonymous boltok said...

Trumka

Eddie York
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUVpJnHZNw8

The mainstream press gave these remarks, along with those of the president, prime coverage. What they downplayed was that Trumka, now 61, during his years as United Mine Workers president and then as AFL-CIO secretary-treasurer, became a rising star in the organized labor firmament by enabling union violence and corruption. In other words, his tacit and at times open encouragement of intimidation and deception as union empowerment tactics may have helped him win his current job.

Consider a multi-state coal miners strike organized by the UMW back in 1993. As union president, Trumka ordered more than 17,000 workers to walk off their jobs. He was determined, among other things, to ensure that nobody would find work in a mine without paying dues or agency fees to the union. He explicitly told strikers to "kick the shit out of" employees and mine operators resisting union demands. UMW enforcers obliged him. They vandalized homes, fires shots at a mine office, and cut power to another mine, temporarily trapping 93 miners underground. Worse yet, a union goon on July 22, 1993 murdered heavy equipment operator Eddie York, a nonunion contractor, shooting him in the back of the head in his pickup truck as he drove past strikers at a Logan County, West Virginia work site; a bunch of goons then proceeded to pelt York's would-be rescuers with rocks. Rather than apologize, Trumka offered the following rationalization: "I'm saying if you strike a match and put your finger in, common sense tells you you're going to burn your finger." In other words, Eddie York had it coming. His widow, Wanda York, saw things differently. She sued the union for $27 million, naming Trumka and other union officials as co-defendants. After a long battle, UMW lawyers quickly decided to settle out of court in June 1997 once federal prosecutors announced they would release evidence from the trial of Jerry Dale Lowe, convicted of conspiracy and weapons charges related to York's murder by a federal jury three years earlier.

 
At 11:24 AM, Anonymous Anon Too said...

Boltok,
You seem to be so obsessed with the fact that you consider Richard Trumka to be a fat sloppy pig, would you care to share your impressions of Haley Barbour, Chris Christie, Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich and others who are overweight?

 
At 11:25 AM, Anonymous Anon Too said...

Boltok,
You seem to be so obsessed with the fact that you consider Richard Trumka to be a fat sloppy pig, would you care to share your impressions of Haley Barbour, Chris Christie, Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich and others who are overweight?

 
At 12:41 PM, Blogger Dearest Friend said...

I typed up a response about an hour ago but it just disappeared.

Long story short, I'm frustrated with modern technology right now particularly the internet!

I should be able to find a decent school to obtain a simple certification in my field without being bombarded by colleges I've never heard of with emails and telephone calls I DID NOT ask for.
I did go to an interview with one of these colleges and I have to say it - it was just more corporate bs - they're in it for the money not to truly help the average American better themselvs.

And congress is picking on the community college system? O-K...

I also think it should be just a little easier to get help with paying for a little extra education. The fedearl financial aid website is a nightmare.

Where is this education is a right to all Americans that we were promised? If it is a right...shouldn't it just be a tad easier to get without losing my identity to a third-rate college or financial aid firm?

Oh wait! I know, the credit card companies want me to put my tuition on my credit card...so THEY can make the money...not me...

What a silly, innocent little girl, I am...

Brownlilocks...Oh, this college is too expensive! Oh, this college is too sleazy! Oh, this college could be just right if only...the poor baby bear out there can't afford college! Mama and Papa Bear are doing their best but da big bad wolves that run the forest...well, they don't want baby bear to learn to much...

So, Brownlilocks here will just have to stay home and wonder how she's going to pay the big bad wolves...

I miss the days when you filled out the paperwork with your dad, went to school with his check (or cash) and got an education!

Why must everything be so complicated?? And no, I'm not looking for a hand-out, just some help...that's all. I would much rather work for a living...not sit and wait for the telephone to ring!

 
At 1:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jefferson's Guardian:

Bernie Sanders and Allan Greyson support the ISO (International Socialist Organization).

What is your position on the ISO?

Do you think Thomas Jefferson would support the ISO?

 
At 2:03 PM, Anonymous Tom Degan said...

Obama's Reverend Wright and Farrakan once went to visit Khadafi, it took a long time before Obama criticized Khadafi by name.

God Bless George Bush, he would have handled this situation pefectly.

 
At 2:06 PM, Blogger Twilight said...

Someone earlier is asking about the socialist party in the USA.
As a relative newcomer, and one with a socialistic heart, I don't see the Socialist Party proper as being right for the USA - not as the nation has now evolved/morphed.

Something more akin to Britain's Old Labour party (NOT Tony Blair's New Labour) would fit much better.
Union friendly, nationalisation of essential services/utilities, healthcare etc. That sort of thing, or maybe even a diluted version of it at first.

One of my political heroes from the UK, Tony Benn once said of Old Labour
it's never been a socialist party, but it's always had socialists in it, just as there are some Christians in the Church, it's an exact parallel."

;-)

 
At 2:22 PM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

The comment posted just above Twilight's obviously was not written by me. We'll leave it up though, if only as another pathetic example as to how low these knuckleheads will go in order to distort the debate. Very amusing.

 
At 2:37 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

“I also think it should be just a little easier to get help with paying for a little extra education. The fedearl financial aid website is a nightmare.
Where is this education is a right to all Americans that we were promised?”

First, no one promised you the right to an education. You made that up in your own mind.

Second, remember the housing bubble and the resulting financial collapse a couple of years back? Well, hang on for Financial Collapse Part Two brought on by the education bubble – again perpetuated by gobs of bad debt – much of it propped up by the Feds. What will make it worse is – no collateral exists. It not only will bring financial ruin to us – it was a large part of the reason that college costs have far outpaced inflation, like the housing bubble…

 
At 3:58 PM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Dearest Friend "I typed up a response about an hour ago but it just disappeared."
Ah hah!

 
At 4:45 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"capitalism--(that it) is a class society that creates great wealth for the few at the expense of the many"

How does a society create wealth? Isn't wealth created by individuals?

How is the creation of wealth by an individual done at the expense of others?

 
At 8:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"...Then Richard Trumpa came for me "to join" the trade union, and I didn't speak out because I was afraid of getting my leg broken ...

...Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."


All workers should have the FREEDOM of choice of whether to join a union or not.

 
At 8:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Modusoperandi

Tom is getting tired of your posts, that is why they are disappearing!

 
At 8:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Richard Trumka could easily get the role of Frankenstein if Hollywood decides to make another version. And they would save a lot of money on makeup because Richard doesn't need much!

Tom, please don't give Richard my IP address, since I want to ski a few more days this year!

 
At 8:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

update from above:

"...Then Richard Trumpa came for my neighbor "to join" the trade union, and I didn't speak out because I was afraid of getting my leg broken ...

...Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."


All workers should have the FREEDOM of choice of whether to join a union or not.

 
At 11:56 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

Tom, your very insightful, yet depressing post has, rather unfortunately, summed up a great number of many of your post's respondents in the title alone. I refuse to believe that any of these particular people are merely "misguided" when they continue to spew nonsense and garbage which is the epitome of half-witted and crazy.

 
At 1:31 AM, Blogger Dearest Friend said...

I "made up" the right to an education? OK...that's a good one.


I made up my own mind to FURTHER my education.

I didn't know I was living in Afghanistan...scuse me, I'll think I'll put on my burka now and stay in hiding.

 
At 3:49 AM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

"All workers should have the FREEDOM of choice of whether to join a union or not."

On this point, at least. we are in agreement.

 
At 3:57 AM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

Modusoperandi....

I don't know why your posts keep disappearing. One says "removed by author." Could you be inadvertently doing it?

 
At 7:38 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Modusoperandi,
Just saw one of his missing posts on American Socialists Party blog!

 
At 9:15 AM, Blogger Ellis D., Esq. said...

Joining a union should be BENEFICIAL to workers and therefore the workers should want to join. If the union does not benefit the workers then there is something wrong with THAT union, not ALL unions. Let's just pretend that employers are generous and benevolent and workers will be treated fairly without any bargaining power. Yeah, that will work !!

 
At 9:16 AM, Anonymous Gypsy Bob said...

Observations from Anne Droid:

Capitalists/Corporations are willing to share the wealth on their terms. The Union movement allowed for worker stability hence predictable worker/product productivity. Here in lies the rub; the sharing of wealth now, in part, was on the workers terms not the bosses.

Over the years the Corporations and the Unions played hard ball with the unions looking for more for their members and the Corporations looking to give less while inventing ever more effective union busting strategies.

The tipping point occurred when the global economy allowed for rapid shifting of the means of production to the location of the cheapest labor pool anywhere in the world without regard for the former workers livelihoods, families or standard of living…Corporations had checkmated the Unions and once again secured control of the sharing of wealth…revenge is sweet!

We the People are now royally fucked since Corporations no longer are constrained by national loyalty but rather answer and respond only to actions/policies that positively affect the bottom line in the short run.
The average Joe is at the mercy of short sighted, short term profit driven bottom liners with 20/20 tunnel vision.

Most Americans are worker Bees not Entrepreneurs and don’t have the first clue how to reinvent themselves. Congress aka Corporate Stooges only throw their constituents an imaginary bone every election cycle to insure their re-election so they can return to doing corporate bidding. We are truly on our own…

 
At 9:31 AM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

Good one, Gypsy Bob!

I agree with you. The congress is nothing more than stooges for the plutocracy.

Cheers!

 
At 10:17 AM, Blogger Harley A. said...

First, Dearest Friend, I have no idea how you inferred a sexist message in my post. My comment was general – not aimed at women. My point was that a college education is not a “right” – for anyone. And, forgive me for saying “you made it up” – I should have rather said “you’ve been fed a lie” – because you have. Decades ago, America lost the mindset of thankfulness for the privileges we enjoy. We decided EVERYTHING was a right and have become more and more embittered as we pass on that mindset to our progeny. Did it ever strike you as odd that couples in their late 20’s were moving into homes costing $300, 400, 500K – homes their parents would never have dreamed of purchasing 30 years ago? And, now, not only our economy, but much of the west is suffering economically because of that mindset. That mindset has also led us into a large and looming financial problem – the secondary education finance bubble. Your government will not warn you about it because (1) they are largely responsible for enabling it and (2) you won’t elect them if they dare say such uninspired things or dare recommend maybe we immediately halt lending tens of thousands of dollars to 20 year olds with no collateral.

It is a difficult mindset to fight and it is frustrating – because people really are convinced that they have been dealt a raw deal in life. It is the lie you’ll hear every day if you listen carefully enough. And, it is THE lie that politicians love to leverage. America’s problems will NEVER be solved until the mindset changes. So, I agree with Tom, America may be done – though my reasoning is different. Just read this blog – Americans are convinced they have it bad largely because they’ve been fed that mindset for so long.

 
At 10:33 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Tom Degan "Modusoperandi....I don't know why your posts keep disappearing. One says 'removed by author.' Could you be inadvertently doing it?"
I post, it appears, I come back in an hour and it's gone.

 
At 12:04 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

The Unions are run by the Mafia, they get organized crime out, they might serve America better.

 
At 2:57 PM, Anonymous boltok said...

MO
Computers continue to amaze. People say computers are stupid as they only record and process information as 1s and 0s. Yet, the computer can tell from the nearly infinite sequence of 1s and 0s produced by converting your writings from ascii to machine code, that your writings are nonsense. Then the computer correctly decides that it is ok to delete them so as not to waste memory. Genius.

 
At 3:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bubba Organised Crime runs the US they are called politicians.

Den

 
At 4:10 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

MO –

You’re Canadian, so in respect to your country’s fairness doctrine, your posts are being held in a buffer until a requisite amount of conservative posts are logged.

I love self-stultifying ideas – they are the most entertaining. If “fairness doctrines” were fair, then shouldn’t equal weight be given to those who oppose them? So, should equally be in effect and not in effect at the same time. Nonsense always has a way of being nonsensical.

 
At 5:36 PM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Yes. Our media is the worst thing ever, eh. It's enough to make a man want to go to the border and walk oot.
It's terrible. I mean, occasionally somebody out on the edge will have to defend himself, while the Human Rights Commission (federal or provincial) decides whether he's simply an asshole or if he's yelling "fire" in a theatre.
A travesty, that things such as this should happen.
On the other hand, our equivalent to FoxNews is importing FoxNews. Which few watch. Because it's shit.
And our same horribly crippled, terrified and hiding-under-its-desk media provided the analysis that your far larger and, I'm told, far freer media didn't do (even Frontline seemed to stumble in to cautious jingoism), which helped us not join you in your treasure-wasting, ideologically-planned blood letting in Iraq.
So there's that.

 
At 6:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

MO, so your a Canadian?
Why don't you keep your frozen nose out of our business?
Try taking care of your French speaking citizens and your baby seal killing indigenous natives instead of telling us what we should do!

CANUCKS GO HOME

 
At 6:46 PM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Anonymous, because it hurts me to see you hurt yourselves.
Seriously, seeing people rise up in protest to stop the government from trying to give them and their fellow citizens healthcare isn't the act of a sane people.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you're all nuts. What I'm saying is that enough of you are that it's worrisome. When 18% of the population remains silent through all the abuses of the Bush Administration, but loses its shit when, say, Obama's wife has the audacity to come out against childhood obesity, that's a sign that something is seriously wrong.

 
At 7:01 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

@Anonymous- Haven't you heard of "globalization"? What we do to ruin the US, domestically and policy-wise, also ruins Canada....and a lot of other places....all I can say of your comment is "WOW!"..and then again backwards..."WOW!"

What are these nasty, over-the-top nationalist attitudes that I hear all-too-often these days compensating for?

 
At 7:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

MM MO
so what Canada does ruins us?

 
At 7:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

MO,
go back to your igloo and eat the res of your baby seal blubber.

MM,
Amazing the very thing those left of center bitch so much about us is the sticking of our nose into our nations business. BUT, if other nations want to stick their nose into ours, well that's ok, it the correct thing to do, etc etc.
LEFT WING, AMERICAN HATING, DOUBLE STANDARD displayed again. AND AGAIN.

 
At 7:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is not one code pinker here that will admit he/she is a member of the ISO (International Socialist Organization)?

Ellis D., its time to come out of the closet! Show your true red colors!

Modusoperandi, although you are from a mostly backwards country and your posts long winded blah-blah-blah, I do like Ice Road Truckers.

 
At 9:43 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 9:45 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

@ Anonymous - That's not what "globalization" is. Please educate yourself. It is not "sticking our noses into other nation's business," and even if it was, I have never stated the way I feel about US intervention or US foreign policy. You are very conflicted...Have a good night.

 
At 9:53 PM, Blogger atrevista said...

@Anonymous @4:45-
How does a society create wealth?
Everyone contributes- by buying things.
Isn't wealth created by individuals? I suppose it's possible- but more often it's a collective effort. Sam Walton made billions, and so do his heirs, but they hold their employees at 38 hrs so they don't have to pay benefits.

How is the creation of wealth by an individual done at the expense of others?
Remember the Company Town? There's one industry in town and they owned everything. They paid low wages for hard dangerous work, they owned the houses and decided the rental rates. They ran the stores and sold goods at inflated prices.
By owners endangering workers safety for the sake of a few dollars in safety precautions. Mesothelioma? Black Lung? Those poor watch painters who got cancer from exposure to radioactive paint? Plain old preventable industrial accidents?

 
At 10:07 PM, Blogger Catharine said...

Uhhh.. AHEM! I beg to differ. I've been bitching and moaning about the Death of America for a couple of years now. And I've even done it here. And all I've gotten from the Pollyannas are "America is the GREATEST country on EARTH"-speak.

But believe me, I see it as clearly as you do. It's okay though. There is more to life than being the greatest country on Earth. I'm not sure what at the moment, but I'll let you know as soon as I figure it out.

~A~

 
At 10:58 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Put Christ back into the US Government, Vote for Chris Christie, no overexagerration here, US needs to get back to it's Christian roots.

 
At 11:39 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

The assassin of RFK denied parole, Muslim extremist guns down four soldiers in Germany, 2 die, by the way, the Gunman from Kosovo, we can remember the Clinton administration going to war in the former Yugoslavia,

"Militants gunned down the only Christian in Pakistan's government outside his widowed mother's home, the second assassination in two months of a high-profile opponent of laws that impose the death penalty for insulting Islam."- AP

Clearly we should be thankful when we had Rumsfield and Bush in there manning foreign policy. Clearly Radical Islam is a danger. Anyone who can't see this is blind.

 
At 11:49 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

@ Bubba...scratch that, we need to get back to our indigenous roots if anything...which reminds me...

This episode of "Family Guy" came on last night where Stewie and Brian had this device that would transport them to different universes in the multiverse, same time, same date, just a different coexisting universe (this was all based of the multiverse theory, you know, an infinite amount of universes, but only a finite amount of matter, suggesting that you have many dopplegangers out there doing different things, in different universes [a lot of physicists think that this theory is correct, and that math actually shows it]), but the device was broken (in reality it was stuck in "ipod shuffle mode", a fact revealed later) and they could only randomly jump from universe to universe and hope to somehow get back home (which would be pretty hard to do with an infinite number of universes), but anyway, they land in the universe where religion was NEVER EVER EVER conceived or created....and....
TUH DAH!....

the Earth was, not surprisingly, thousands of years more advanced than it is currently (circa 2008, it was a rerun)....technology, education, peace, globalization, policies, Meg was hot, you name it....way more advanced and better off than we are now!!!

kind of makes you wonder.... muahahahaha!

 
At 11:52 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

clearly radical ANYTHING is a danger

 
At 11:56 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

And you DO know that Sirhan Sirhan is NOT a Muslim right? Not all Palestinians are....

 
At 12:36 AM, Anonymous Bubba said...

During the winter, where I am and probably for many of you, I get French Canadian radio. It's a blast to listen to.

For the border of New York/Canada, if there is such a thing, everyone should check out Robert DeNiro's/Sean Penn's movie "we're no Angels", it really is about the Catholic Faith.

 
At 8:42 AM, Anonymous boltok said...

Is MO Canadian? As an analogy, I thought MO was one of those people who had a bad day at work and comes home and kicks the dog sleeping at the front door. He comes to the US from an undeveloped/uncivilized/undemocratic place and attacks our system of govt. Its a passive agressive behavior. I thought he was from somewhere in the mid east or somewhere of that ilk where he would get his head chopped off for complaining about his government.

 
At 9:20 AM, Blogger Ellis D., Esq. said...

Anonymous....Ice Road Truckers are in Alaska you moron. As I've said before I'm a member of the Woodstock Nation Party ( WNP ). We believe in Peace, Love and sharing of resources. We believe capitalism is inhumane and demented. We believe in a better society through enlightenment. If you capitalist idiots want to kill each other in your quest for materialistic, ego and status driven bullshit go right ahead. Just don't make a mess, okay ??

 
At 10:44 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Ellis D., Esq. "Anonymous....Ice Road Truckers are in Alaska you moron."
You're both right. It just depends on which season you're referring to.

 
At 11:15 AM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Bubba, you're all wet in your assertion that the "US needs to get back to it's [sic] Christian roots."

The are no "Christian roots" to get back to. The wording of the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11 (1797), makes that very clear.

Cite your sources that claim otherwise.

 
At 12:18 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

Ellis, Woodstock is a PERFECT example of the state of things. Responsible people, with capital to invest, and driven to produce a product organized the event. Bands were paid healthy sums of money to play, land was rented, vendors set up, tickets were pricey but reasonable for the product. Then, those who believed that they had a right to whatever they want, decided to tear down the fences and steel from society. And, then they parade around after the fact, telling the rest of us how wonderful their ideologies are once they’ve begged off of society. You are not enlightened – you remain very much in the dark.

 
At 12:49 PM, Blogger Ellis D., Esq. said...

Harley that was a result of poor planning by the promoters. Once the number of people who arrived in Bethel became too large the doors were opened for pragmatic reasons. The behavior of the ENLIGHTENED crowd in the less than perfect conditions PROVES my point that WE can get along with one another. It is the establishment people who need conflict and competition to fulfill their ego driven misguided belief that some folks are entitled to more than other folks. And Harley I'd tell you how cool I am but that's an ego thing. I have no interest in anything other than preventing societal collapse caused by those who never will see the light.

 
At 3:17 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Jefferson's Guardian, You're kidding? The Nation? LOL , But undoubtedly, you do espouse a view that leads to the road of perdition, that shows that Leftists and Liberals have no concept of the Constitution or laws of this nation.

Note, we have FREEDOM OF RELIGION, NOT FREEDOM FROM RELIGION, as the LEft has damaged the US so much by.


Founding Fathers, Religious Affiliation,

55% Anglican
18% Presbyterian
17% Congregationalist
4% Quaker
Etc.

President Harry Truman wrote to Pope Pius XII in 1947 that "This is a Christian nation"

Woodrow Wilson, in his election campaign for President, made the same point: "A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, nor what it is trying to do. We are trying to do a futile thing if we do not know where we came from or what we have been about.... America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the tenets of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture."

 
At 3:19 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Nice Try Jefferson's Guardian, can we listen to Patrick Henry? He may have known TJ.

"Revolutionary leader Patrick Henry said: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship."

 
At 3:21 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Why go on and on?? Huh?? We are a Christian Country, we have Christian Roots, the likes of JG are to be loathed for such assertions.

Or maybe he's spending time in the library at the computers instead of recess.

" In a 1774 report to King George, the Governor of Boston noted: "If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ." The pre-war Colonial Committees of Correspondence soon made this the American motto: "No King but King Jesus." And this sentiment was carried over into the 1783 peace treaty with Great Britain ending that war, which begins "In the name of the most Holy and Undivided Trinity... ."

Samuel Adams, who has been called 'The Father of the American Revolution' wrote The Rights of the Colonists in 1772, which stated: "The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament."

It is frequently asserted by those seeking to minimize Christianity's central role in our nation's founding and history, that the founders themselves were not practicing Christians, but rather were Deists or Agnostics. In a 1962 speech to Congress, Senator Robert Byrd noted that of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 29 were Anglicans, 16-18 were Calvinists, and among the rest were 2 Methodists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 lapsed Quaker-sometimes Anglican, and only 1 open Deist — Benjamin Franklin who attended all Christian worships and called for public prayer.

Samuel Chase was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, a Justice of the US Supreme Court, and, as Chief Justice of the State of Maryland, wrote in 1799 ( Runkel v Winemiller): "By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion... ." (Maryland was one of nine States having established churches supported by taxpayers at the time of the adoption of the Constitution; these churches were gradually disestablished, the last in 1833. The Maryland constitution, typical of many of the States, restricted public office to Christians until, in 1851, it was changed to allow Jews who believed in a future state of rewards and punishments to also serve). "

ETC. ETC. ETC.

 
At 3:24 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

The Nation Lies as Liberals Lie, As Democrats Lie.

"The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans--the fundamentalists of their day--would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast." The historical epoch had afforded these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which established priesthoods were liable, as well as "the impious presumption of legislators and rulers," as Jefferson wrote, "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time." - The Nation

 
At 3:27 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Libyan rebels call for aid from Bush against Tyrant Gaddafhi

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110303/wl_nm/us_libya_protests

""Bring Bush! Make a no fly zone, bomb the planes," shouted soldier-turned-rebel Nasr Ali, referring to a no-fly zone imposed on Iraq in 1991 by then U.S. President George Bush. "

 
At 3:29 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Mao's Guardian, you are all wet in your article, Our Country has Christian Roots as repeated often by the Founding Fathers, all you do is roll out some article on the constitution by a left wing publication.

 
At 3:33 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Pity Our Country that the likes of Mao's Guardian would ruin it so illinformed are they. -----------

"Christianity pervaded the laws and the legal system of the States and the federal government. For example, Judge Nathaniel Freeman in 1802 charged Massachusetts Grand Juries as follows: "The laws of the Christian system, as embraced by the Bible, must be respected as of high authority in all our courts... . [Our government] originating in the voluntary compact of a people who in that very instrument profess the Christian religion, it may be considered, not as republic Rome was, a Pagan, but a Christian republic." In 1811 ( People v Ruggles), New York Chief Justice James Kent held: "'...whatever strikes at the root of Christianity tends manifestly to the dissolution of civil government... .' We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity... . Christianity in its enlarged sense, as a religion revealed and taught in the Bible, is part and parcel of the law of the land... ." In 1824, the Pennsylvania Supreme court held ( Updegraph v The Commonwealth): Christianity, general Christianity, is and always has been a part of the common law...not Christianity founded on any particular religious tenets; not Christianity with an established church, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men... ."

Our sixth President, John Quincy Adams said "From the day of the Declaration...they [the American people] were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct"

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court said: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their ruler, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." This was said despite the explicit provision in the federal Constitution forbidding any religious test for federal public office.

Justice Joseph Story, who was appointed to the US Supreme Court by President Madison, said in an 1829 speech at Harvard: "There never has been a period of history, in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundation." Story wrote several respected treatises or Commentaries on Constitutional Law, in which are found the following: "Probably, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the [First] Amendment...the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. Any attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation."

"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government".

 
At 3:34 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Continued:

"Justice Story wrote for a unanimous Supreme Court in 1844 ( Vidal v Girard's Executors): "It is also said, and truly that the Christian religion is a part of the common law... ."

In 1854, The United States House of Congress passed a resolution: "The great vital and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ."

During the Civil War, The Senate passed a resolution in 1863: "...devoutly recognizing the supreme authority and just government of Almighty God...encouraged ...to seek Him for succor according to His appointed way, through Jesus Christ, the Senate ...does hereby request the President ...to set aside a day for national prayer and humiliation." President Lincoln promptly issued a Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day, stating "...in compliance with the request and fully concurring in the view of the Senate... ."

The US Supreme Court forbade polygamy in 1890 (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints v United States): "It is contrary to the spirit of Christianity and the civilization which Christianity has produced in the Western world." Two years later, the Court, by Justice Brewer, approvingly cited many of the earlier cases cited above, discussed the history and prominent role of religion in laws, business, customs, and society, and held (Church of the Holy Trinity v United States): "...this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation... . These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian Nation... .we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth."

 
At 3:35 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Continued:

Congress in essence summarized all this preceding history when it passed a Joint Resolution designating 1983 as The Year of the Bible, stating: "Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people; ...deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation; ...Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States....designate 1983 as a national 'Year of the Bible in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures". In 1988, a Joint Resolution of Congress declared that the first Thursday in May of each year is to be a National Day of Prayer.

The historical record from the foregoing quotes from past Presidents, leaders, Congressmen, Jurists and court decisions, seems firmly on the side of those claiming that America was born and maintained as a Christian nation whose laws, morals, and customs derive from Christian (and Jewish) scriptures. The opponents of this view, however, point to the first sentence of Article 11 of the obscure Tripoli Treaty of 1797 as seeming conclusive proof that America was never a Christian nation. Before discussing that critical sentence, the treaty itself should be read in context with all of the Barbary treaties.

The Barbary States on the coast of North Africa, comprising the Moslem States of Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, attacked ships in their coastal waters which would not pay tribute, and held captives for ransom. The European nations had treaties with those states, under which, in exchange for tribute, shipping was protected. After the Revolutionary War, our new nation followed the lead of those European nations and entered into similar treaties. Breach of those treaties by the Barbary nations led to the Barbary wars in 1801.

The first treaty was with Morocco in 1786, negotiated by Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin. It was written in Arabic with an English translation. The treaty language assumes that the world was divided between Christians and Moors (Moslems), e.g. "If we shall be at war with any Christian Power ... .", "... no Vessel whatever belonging either to Moorish or Christian Powers with whom the United States may be at War ... .", "...be their enemies Moors or Christians." These along with numerous references to God, e.g., "In the name of Almighty God,", "... trusting in God ...", "Grace to the only God", "...the servant of God ...", "... whom God preserve ...". are the only references to religion in this treaty of Peace and Friendship.

The next was the Treaty of Peace and Amity with Algiers in 1795,written in Turkish. The only reference to religion was in Article 17 which gave the Consul of the United States "... Liberty to Exercise his Religion in his own House [and] all Slaves of the Same Religion shall not be impeded in going to Said Consul's house at hours of prayer... ." The Consul's house was to function in lieu of a Christian church.

The Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation with Tunis in 1797 was in Turkish with a French translation. It begins "God is infinite.", and refers to the Ottoman Emperor "whose realm may God prosper", and to the President of the United States "... the most distinguished among those who profess the religion of the Messiah, ...." Other than a reference to "the Christian year", there is no further mention of religion.

 
At 3:35 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Continued

The Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli was signed in 1796 in Arabic, and was later translated into English by Joel Barlow, United States Consul General at Algiers. Except for the typical phrases "Praise be to God" and "whom God Exalt", there is no reference to religion other than the aforesaid remarkable Article 11, which reads,

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan (sic) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The treaty, with this language, was submitted to the Senate by President Adams, and was ratified. Thus, opponents of the 'Christian nation' concept point to this seemingly official repudiation of the very idea. Yet the language is less a repudiation of the role of Christianity in the nation's heritage than a reminder that there was no national established church in the United States as there was in the European states with which Tripoli had previously dealt. This provided reassurance to the Moslem Bey and his religious establishment that religion, in of itself, would not be a basis of hostility between the two nations. None of the other similar treaties with the Barbary states, before or after this treaty, including the replacement treaties signed in 1804 after the Barbary Wars, have any language remotely similar.

 
At 3:43 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

During the Civil War, The Senate passed a resolution in 1863: "...devoutly recognizing the supreme authority and just government of Almighty God...encouraged ...to seek Him for succor according to His appointed way, through Jesus Christ, the Senate ...does hereby request the President ...to set aside a day for national prayer and humiliation." President Lincoln promptly issued a Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day, stating "...in compliance with the request and fully concurring in the view of the Senate... ."

The US Supreme Court forbade polygamy in 1890 (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints v United States): "It is contrary to the spirit of Christianity and the civilization which Christianity has produced in the Western world." Two years later, the Court, by Justice Brewer, approvingly cited many of the earlier cases cited above, discussed the history and prominent role of religion in laws, business, customs, and society, and held (Church of the Holy Trinity v United States): "...this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation... . These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian Nation... .we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth."

 
At 3:43 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Congress in essence summarized all this preceding history when it passed a Joint Resolution designating 1983 as The Year of the Bible, stating: "Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people; ...deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation; ...Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States....designate 1983 as a national 'Year of the Bible in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures". In 1988, a Joint Resolution of Congress declared that the first Thursday in May of each year is to be a National Day of Prayer.

The historical record from the foregoing quotes from past Presidents, leaders, Congressmen, Jurists and court decisions, seems firmly on the side of those claiming that America was born and maintained as a Christian nation whose laws, morals, and customs derive from Christian (and Jewish) scriptures. The opponents of this view, however, point to the first sentence of Article 11 of the obscure Tripoli Treaty of 1797 as seeming conclusive proof that America was never a Christian nation. Before discussing that critical sentence, the treaty itself should be read in context with all of the Barbary treaties.

The Barbary States on the coast of North Africa, comprising the Moslem States of Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, attacked ships in their coastal waters which would not pay tribute, and held captives for ransom. The European nations had treaties with those states, under which, in exchange for tribute, shipping was protected. After the Revolutionary War, our new nation followed the lead of those European nations and entered into similar treaties. Breach of those treaties by the Barbary nations led to the Barbary wars in 1801.

 
At 3:44 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

The first treaty was with Morocco in 1786, negotiated by Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin. It was written in Arabic with an English translation. The treaty language assumes that the world was divided between Christians and Moors (Moslems), e.g. "If we shall be at war with any Christian Power ... .", "... no Vessel whatever belonging either to Moorish or Christian Powers with whom the United States may be at War ... .", "...be their enemies Moors or Christians." These along with numerous references to God, e.g., "In the name of Almighty God,", "... trusting in God ...", "Grace to the only God", "...the servant of God ...", "... whom God preserve ...". are the only references to religion in this treaty of Peace and Friendship.

The next was the Treaty of Peace and Amity with Algiers in 1795,written in Turkish. The only reference to religion was in Article 17 which gave the Consul of the United States "... Liberty to Exercise his Religion in his own House [and] all Slaves of the Same Religion shall not be impeded in going to Said Consul's house at hours of prayer... ." The Consul's house was to function in lieu of a Christian church.

The Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation with Tunis in 1797 was in Turkish with a French translation. It begins "God is infinite.", and refers to the Ottoman Emperor "whose realm may God prosper", and to the President of the United States "... the most distinguished among those who profess the religion of the Messiah, ...." Other than a reference to "the Christian year", there is no further mention of religion.

The Treaty of Peace and Friendship

 
At 3:45 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

TRIPOLI


with Tripoli was signed in 1796 in Arabic, and was later translated into English by Joel Barlow, United States Consul General at Algiers. Except for the typical phrases "Praise be to God" and "whom God Exalt", there is no reference to religion other than the aforesaid remarkable Article 11, which reads,

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan (sic) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The treaty, with this language, was submitted to the Senate by President Adams, and was ratified. Thus, opponents of the 'Christian nation' concept point to this seemingly official repudiation of the very idea. Yet the language is less a repudiation of the role of Christianity in the nation's heritage than a reminder that there was no national established church in the United States as there was in the European states with which Tripoli had previously dealt. This provided reassurance to the Moslem Bey and his religious establishment that religion, in of itself, would not be a basis of hostility between the two nations. None of the other similar treaties with the Barbary states, before or after this treaty, including the replacement treaties signed in 1804 after the Barbary Wars, have any language remotely similar.

And there is a deeper mystery: As noted in a footnote at page 1070 of the authoritative treatise by Bevans, Treaties and other International Agreements of the United States of America, citing treaty scholar Hunter Miller.

"While the Barlow translation quoted above has been printed in all official and unofficial treaty collections since 1797, most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase 'the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.' does not exist at all. There is no Article 11. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point" (Emphasis added)

 
At 3:45 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

In sum, the phrase was no doubt an invention of Mr. Barlow, who inserted it on his own for his own, unknown, purposes. It was duly ratified without question by the United States Senate, which would no doubt be hesitant to object to any phraseology which was represented as desired by the Bey of Tripoli, with whom the United States wanted peaceful relations. It remains a mystery.

Can America still be called a Christian nation? It is certainly a more religiously pluralistic and diverse society than it was during the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. There are increasing numbers of non-Christians immigrating to this country, and there has been a rapid rise in adherents to Islam among our population. There are millions of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Unitarians, Hindus, Wiccans, Naturists, Agnostics, and Atheists, but Christians comprise roughly 84% of the population. Our constitutional legal system is still based on the Jewish/Christian Bible, not the Koran or other holy book. We still observe Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, as an official holiday. Easter and Christmas still have a special place in the holiday lexicon. The Ten Commandments are still on the wall behind the Supreme Court Justices when they take the bench. Our coins still display the motto "In God We Trust." The US is still firmly part of a Western Civilization fashioned by a Judeo-Christian religious ethic and heritage. Alexis de Tocqueville observed more than a century and a half ago, "There is no country in the world, where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America." That is still true today. We live, not under a Christian government, but in a nation where all are free to practice their particular religion, in accommodation with other religions, and in accordance with the basic principles of the nation, which are Christian in origin. It is in that sense that America may properly be referred to as a Christian nation.

 
At 4:30 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites" Thomas Jefferson -- In Notes on the State of Virginia

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect." James Madison - 1774 in a letter to William Bradford

"Lighthouses are more useful than chuches." Ben Franklin -

"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years." John Adams- 1814

Bubba, you are mistaking Christianity with Deism in many of your examples...amongst other things...

 
At 5:07 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. " Ben Franklin
-- Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758



And for the record, when a judge or justice decides to cite the Bible or invoke God in one of their opinions, that's exactly what it is, an opinion. That does not entitle the invocation or citation in itself to become a lawful declaration. The only thing that becomes law is the actual court decision its self, and even if it "were" so, the US constitution is still the Supreme law of this land and trumps common law every time, and the first amendment would come into effect.

 
At 5:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

MO
Go back to the frigging north pole you nosy Canuck.
Take care of your own business, we don't need an liberal help from the land of baby seal killers, we got enough of own liberals here.
BUTT OUT

 
At 5:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

MM MO

"because it hurts me to see you hurt yourselves"MO
"What we do to ruin the US, domestically and policy-wise, also ruins Canada.."MM


So what Canada does ruins us?

Still waiting for your sparkling answers.

 
At 5:54 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

Anonymous: Not as much as we do them since our GDP and population are greater, not to mention the name we have made for ourselves, internationally, but yes they have the potential to since they seem to have more renewable resources and their GDP continues to grown faster than ours. Through globalization all of our economies and cultures and everything are linked and they are an ally not to mention directly adjacent neighbor of ours....so any economic or foreign policy decision they make is of very, very close interest of ours...and should be of interest to you as well...any detrimental decision they make to themselves has the potential to be a detriment to us.

Just look at how we brought a bunch of countries into Iraq with us...and the GLOBAL financial crisis caused by a shortfall in OUR banking system.

 
At 6:51 PM, Blogger finefroghair said...

freedom of religion
not, freedom from religion
there it is in a nutshell
not, freedom from religion
can't get away from religion
it stalks, it hounds, it pesters
wait thats not religion
it's just religious followers
thanks bubba for pointing that out!

 
At 7:14 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Very insightful finefroghair, the next time a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, famine strike, you tell that to the people the Church will help or it might even be the evil USA, no one else does it!


Blogger finefroghair said...

freedom of religion
not, freedom from religion
there it is in a nutshell
not, freedom from religion
can't get away from religion
it stalks, it hounds, it pesters
wait thats not religion
it's just religious followers
thanks bubba for pointing that out!

 
At 7:29 PM, Blogger TSVDP said...

MaryMayhem, I'm not confusing anything, Ours is a Christian Country, Liberals poison it,

You didn't even match quote for quote, I had plenty showing the Founding Fathers believed in Christ, yours are more out of quote.

Next time an earthquake kills hundreds of thousands of people, you tell them how bad religion is, because the piece of garbage secular view won't do a thing, it's for the government to act or no one.

 
At 7:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Organized religion bad.

Buddha is the man.?

Joel

 
At 7:36 PM, Anonymous Browns44 said...

"The GLOBAL financial crisis caused by a shortfall in OUR banking system."
Thank you Bill Clinton, Barney Franke, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for causing the shortfall in OUR banking system.
Thank you for causing the housing bubble to blow up. I know you all meant well but it's the results that count, not the intent.

 
At 7:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave at having someone with such marxist views as "Jefferson's Guardian" associating themselves with him and blogging their warped views onto the internet!

 
At 7:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yup, nothing worse than BIG GOVERNMENT to ruin ones day, worse that BIG CORPORATIONS.

 
At 7:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Browns44,

good point, affirmative action home ownwership backfired BIGTIME. Of course Barney, Chris, Bill, and Maxine and their cohorts aren't responsible LOL.

"Lets Roll the Dice One more time!"

 
At 7:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ellis D., Esq. said...
Anonymous....Ice Road Truckers are in Alaska you moron.

Modusoperandi said...
Ellis D., Esq. "Anonymous....Ice Road Truckers are in Alaska you moron."
You're both right. It just depends on which season you're referring to.

Modusoperandi, I find this hard to believe, but thanks for sticking up for me.

Ellis may still take some of that bad acid that was at the Woodstock Concert and spaces out at times when he posts!

 
At 8:10 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Ben Franklin, http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

"“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?”

No need to go Tit for Tat, John Adams too endorsed Christianity through his statements.

Thomas Jefferson?

“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

 
At 8:12 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

yeah, don't blame deregulation, Greenspan and the Federal Reserve, predatory lending, or underwriting fraud, they had nothing to do with the housing bubble...it was all the "liberal" government's fault...

 
At 8:12 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 8:20 PM, Blogger TSVDP said...

Gordon Sinclair, the AMericans, I tried to post this up here, Tom Degan and others probably are too young to remember this, it was put out on record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_hbaYtJ2aw&feature=related

Starting out:

"The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. "

More at http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Our_Culture/americans.htm

 
At 8:34 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

Bub,

I guess you've never heard of "The Jefferson Bible," where our "Christian" ex-president Jefferson cut all of the superstition, miracle, hypocrisy, and other BS out of the bible and rearranged it to his liking, and ended up with 46 pages so he could live by the moral code, like deists do. Jefferson still thought there was too much crap in it, but he didn't have enough time to re-edit it; he didn't feel that it was worthwhile for a person like him to do and should be left to a philosopher, and he died before anything was done. Its published now. You can buy it on amazon.com.

Jefferson was a diest, he might not have started out that way, but he ended up that way. Believe what you want. I'm done.

 
At 10:04 PM, Blogger Bill_in_DE said...

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
--Thomas Jefferson

"Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions
more than our opinions in physics or geometry." --Thomas
Jefferson

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law, and
ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very
formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
--Thomas Jefferson

Gee, it seems like Thomas Jefferson had a lot to say about religion, and you can pretty much cherry pick which quotes you like the most. He also wasn't the only one at the time that had a low opinion of religion:

"In no instance have the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Thomas Paine

"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing;
it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities;
it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing."--Thomas Paine

 
At 12:31 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Anonymous "good point, affirmative action home ownwership backfired BIGTIME."
Is there anything the lazy negro can't be blamed for? (1. Tongue presented in cheek. 2. Fannie/Freddy's mandate was by income, not by color. 3. CRA mortgages weren't the problem. If they were, and Carter was to blame, they'd have popped long before 2009)

"Modusoperandi, I find this hard to believe, but thanks for sticking up for me."
I'll defend you when you're right. It doesn't come up all that often. Make a note of that last bit.

Mary Mayhem "Jefferson was a diest, he might not have started out that way, but he ended up that way. Believe what you want. I'm done."
Actually, no. Jefferson was a theistic rationalist.

 
At 2:37 AM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

MO, I agree with you that the philosophy in theistic rationalism, being heavily based on euro-deism, matches that of Jefferson's, but the Founding Fathers existed during the age of enlightenment and an outsider, at that time, would have described his beliefs, if known to that outsider, as deist. Did the concept of theistic rationalism even exist back then? I honestly don't know, so if it did I stand totally corrected...either way he wasn't Christian....because he didn't believe Jesus was "magic" and all that easter egg resurrection jazz, and Christianity is one thing that I DO, unfortunately, know way too much about (I'm Cajun, raised in a HARDCORE Catholic family) and if ya don't believe in the jesus magic, then you must be saying he isn't God or the son of God and just some ordinary prophet (ugh, like a Muslim...how dare you!??) and then you are committing blasphemy, and you will burn, or maybe we get to burn you as a heretic first....depending on the year and location and law.. But the main point of this whole argument was...what was it anyway?!! oh yeah... that there is a definite and intentional separation of church and state...at least I think that was the point...

 
At 7:35 AM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Mary, it was.

But, as usual, the wingnuts diverted the conversation.

 
At 8:57 AM, Blogger Ellis D., Esq. said...

My apologies to the Anonymous moron...I'd never seen the Canadian Ice Road Truckers !! What was that the summer season ??

 
At 9:44 AM, Anonymous Bubba said...

First off, Of course, you will find some criticizations with the founding fathers of religion.

Doh! We gotta reiterate to Liberals that America was established for Religious Freedom, DOH! That is why there is Freedom of Religion. The Founding Fathers did not want a one state religion.

Mary Mayhem is only trolling, is now saying things designed to enrage someone. Is probably Tommy Degan as well.

So often the Anti Christians are like Mao's Guardian or Mary Mayhem, they are homosexuals and they lash out at Christianity and disrespect the right to life for others.

Their agenda is evil

Is this all Mary May can say? Theism, Monotheism and that person is not a Cajun, took that name to conjure up visions of possible sacreligiousness with Mary, Communism with May and "May Hem". And TJ after all, is just going to be one more Founding Father, no more, no less and so are his thoughts. Who gives a whiff about these tangents.

Next time a hurricane, earthquake strikes, Will we all be counting on Queer Charities to help out the people, stop the cholera spreading.

 
At 9:57 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Sorry, Mary,
If you were raised in a hardcore Catholic family, then according to the Reich Wing bible thumpers you obviously don't know anything about real 'Murakin Christianity".

Jesus was a mammon-serving Republican, and God hates librools. That's what "Murakin Christianity" is all about.

 
At 10:09 AM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Dave Dubya:

Yup, that's what Marakun Christianity is about, from Johnny Cash to Bob Dylan, so glad you set us straight.

 
At 10:47 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Bubba,
Just clarifying. You're welcome.

 
At 11:11 AM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Hey Bubba boy, ya' got pretty long-winded yesterday afternoon with the "Christian nation" malarkey. Copy & paste is a cool thing, isn't it? Now, if you would, please cite your source(s).

Oh, and by the way, thank you for confirming what you initially were so opposed against -- that The Treaty of Tripoli confirmed "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

Thanks for agreeing that I was correct.

Oh, yeah, did I ask you to cite your sources? I think I did...

 
At 11:48 AM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Those who cite the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence that this nation was not founded on the Christian religion, usually ignore the Treaty of Paris of 1783. This Treaty, negotiated by Ben Franklin and John Adams among others, is truly a foundational document for the United States, because by this Treaty Britian recognized the independence of the United States. The Treaty begins with the words, "In the Name of the most holy and undivided Trinity... ," and there is no dispute about its validity or its wording."

Yeh, a Treaty with Muslim Pirates is all the Treaty to Tripoli was, they must have kidnapped like the Somali Pirates do today. Real trustworthy.

Article 11 may not have even been a part of it.

The Founders did not intend to "found" a Christian nation. This is true. America was already a Christian nation. If the Founders intended to found a secular nation, their constitution would have been utterly rejected.

As for the Treaty, I'm always happy to repost the facts.

1. The phrase in question does not appear in the Arabic version
2. The phrase was understood to mean that the US did not have officially hostile relations with nations which were officially Muslim.
3. The treaty was renegotiated a few years later. The phrase was indisputably NOT a part of the subsequent treaty.

 
At 1:16 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Bubba boy, you're all wet. There's no evidence that the original Arabic copy didn't contain the phrase -- none whatsoever. You're makin' it up on the fly, otherwise you'd reference your sources.

Again, I stand by my claim that The Treaty of Tripoli contained the wording: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...". This document confirms it.

By the way, so does Billy Graham.

Damn, I could have sworn I asked you to cite your sources... ;-)

 
At 1:53 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

George Washington, Father of this country:

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

 
At 2:01 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Bob Dylan song - "I believe in you"

http://www.higherpraise.com/lyrics/so-beautiful/beautiful00485.htm

Still Christian? http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/bc.cgi?bc/bccn/1297/dylan

 
At 2:11 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

By the way, everyone who has seen or listened to the "Freewheelin' Bob Dylan", the girl on the cover he is walking with recently passed away, her name was Suze Rotolo. Rest in Peace. http://www.spinner.com/2011/03/04/bob-dylan-suze-rotolo-picture/ My gosh, she died of lung cancer. I believe Freewheelin' introduced "blowin' in the wind' to the public, recorded during the JFK years, President Kennedy is referenced in one of the songs. Hard rain is on the album too, one of Dylan's best.

Other news, kind of cool, Dylan is going to play some shows in Mainland China, latest news.

"Jesus tapped me on the shoulder and said, Bob, why are you resisting me? I said, I'm not resisting you! He said, You gonna follow me? I said, I've never thought about that before! He said, When you're not following me, you're resisting me.”- Bob Dylan

 
At 2:28 PM, Blogger Darlene said...

Okay - I struggled through all of the posts and I am mightily confused. Tom, how did your excellent post on what the Big Corporations (as opposed to big government) have done to this country turn into an an argument on whether we are a Christian nation or not?

Stay with the subject of the post guys or but out. This is not your personal blog and stop changing the subject.

I have noticed that changing the subject is the classic way that those who cannot logically dispute the facts use. I am sick and tired of the Republicans (and especially the Tea Party) using this ploy to divert attention from the real problems facing this country.

And don't you dare call my any of your nasty names again.

 
At 2:51 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Darlene, If Tom Degan didn't go on main stream blogs and newspaper websites of many states outside of NY and say, "look at me everyone, come see my blog" only to see his vile words against the ways of good people in the United States you might have a point. So perhaps Degan should butt out.

 
At 2:56 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

I've worked in a domestic violence shelter,

What Tom Degan says about women such as Barbara Bachmann and Sarah Palin is clearly abuse against women, so too with the fruit brains of others here.

Darlene, perhaps you should zip it.

 
At 3:04 PM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

Hold on thar, Bubbah!

True, I visit many sites - but I always comment on the topic being discussed. True, I leave a link to my site, but that is only because I think I have something important to say. You obviously do, too. Otherwise you wouldn't spend so much of your time here.

And how, pray tell, are my comments regarding Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin abusive toward women? Are their nutty and destructive stances to be considered off base because of their gender? If you can't stand the heat....

http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com

(Sorry. Force of habit I guess)

Cheers!

Tom Degan

 
At 3:10 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

MR. Degan, Okay, I take you at your word, thank you and Bless You.

Jefferson's Guardian, If some posts vanished, you might check if it was because of links, thus, posts without links were more likely to stay up. If you question a source, It is easy to find on google. Thanks.

 
At 3:13 PM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

PS - And don't you go pickin on my girlfriend Darlene, pardner!

Apology accepted.

Cheerio! Pip! Pip!

 
At 3:23 PM, Anonymous Baron's (formerly Bubba) said...

By the way, I use to hate seeing people use photoshop and make fun of Hillary, I don't like them making fun of the first woman, I find no problem with her, at least looks. She does seem to eat junk food while telling people to eat healthily. I objected to Rush's treatment of Pat Schroeder, former Rep of Colorado years ago. And I think the likes of Palin or Bachmann or if they are black but not the right kind, Thomas and Allen West are to be defended.

 
At 4:40 PM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

(I'm on a different computer, in a different place, and my comments are still disappearing. 4th try for this one, no-linked, shortened, split in two parts)
Part II:
"I don't like them making fun of the first woman, I find no problem with her, at least looks. She does seem to eat junk food while telling people to eat healthily."
Applying crass absolutism only works when it's applied to crass absolutists. She's for moderation. When she advocates against child obesity, she's not saying "Your kid is fat because he/she doesn't always eat right.", it's "…because he/she doesn't eat right enough." The Obamas serving nachos during the Super Bowl is not them serving nachos at every meal.
Try to take the positions and statements of those who aren't in your in-group as being proferred in Good Faith. You'll have a much easier time taking them that way then. You may even find some of them to be rational. Then you can start getting angry about the things they're actually doing wrong (Spoiler Alert: they tend to be the same things the previous administration was doing wrong), instead of the bogeymen the Right's Smear Machine conjures up to distract you from the real problems, like two wars and a recession (not "entitlements) are breaking the budget, and a bunch of Wall Street that should be in jail isn't.

 
At 4:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lincoln and the Beatitudes

 
At 5:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nothing off topic here Darlene,

The Boss singing Double Shot of my baby's love with the Swinging Medallions Original Artists....

Lots better than Lennon, Dylan or Stones....

 
At 5:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

MO,

BUTT out of the USA's business. Take care of your problems in Canada, your solutions are not welcome here unless you want to pick up the tab.
Who cares what you think about what OUR 1st Lady says or eats, it's none of your business. Unless you want to either move here and subject yourself to her plans, or want Canada to become a territory of the USA.
BUTT OUT!

 
At 10:14 PM, Blogger Bennett said...

Wow, more comments than I care to read. However it must be noted that this

"In times such as these I have seriously considered heroin addiction but it's just too damned expensive."

is just too true. Codeine seems to be in the same category these days. The numbing would be welcome if the price wasn't so steep.

 
At 10:34 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

part ii,

"... I'm just mild about Barry. Giving in to tax cuts for the plutocracy was beyond idiotic. Did he really believe he would gain any leverage with these assholes by appeasing them?"

"A cursory glance at the insane clown posse that passes for "the loyal opposition" these days tells me that defeating the GOP on Election Day 2012 will be as easy as shooting a goldfish bowl with a 12 gauge shotgun. Just have a gander at their front runners: The only one of the lot with an IQ above room temperature is Mitt Romney. A Mormon as Republican standard bearer? That ain't NEVER gonna happen baby! The religious bigots and extremists who have hijacked that disgusting party will see to that."

Harry Truman, Yes, member of the KKK no matter how tenuous the connection or circumstances involved. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_members_in_United_States_politics

Extremists and Racists, gee whiz, a true populist would take heart that a real grass roots movement was vital in America and effected an election, one of the biggest turnovers ever.

But let's just see what other gems we can find.

"And finally there are the GOP contenders to consider. Look at them! THEY'RE BRAIN-DAMAGED!"

"STAND UP! STAND UP! STAND UP!"

Pleading with the audience or telling Americans to STAND UP for their rights?? Wow.

" (ON Rubio) He's also Hispanic - a growing and important demographic. And, like Romney, he seems to have an IQ higher than your average half-eaten box of Milk Duds."

"Here's a link to Michele Bachmann's nutty speech "

ON Reagan, 1st sentence or so, mind you:

"I was never naive enough to fall for that cheap "aw shucks" persona that the guy exuded like the smell of horseshit. "

"At a time in his life when he should have been tucked snugly away in an assisted living program somewhere, being spoon-fed oatmeal, Ronald Reagan was living in the Executive Mansion."

Oh, would you say that about other people?? Not only is this blog racist, now it is ageist too. Absolutely sickening.

How about this:

" don't think Sarah knew the implications of the term she used in her idiotic speech last week following the massacre in Tuscon. As a matter of fact I am certain of this. When I heard her use the the words, "blood libel", I wasn't sure what it meant either. I had heard the term before but had to look it up to refresh myself on its meaning: An excuse Christians used at one time for murdering Jews. Wow!"

Alan Derschowitz said she used it properly.

That's just the first page, read more for Sarah battering, if she is low profile, hey there is Michelle Bachmann, there is Glenn Beck.

"Glenn Beck's ratings are tanking and he's probably months away from being canceled."

Prime time shows by ranking, O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck....down the list, Maddow, Schultz.

 
At 10:50 PM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Check this gem out:

"Next stop, South Carolina. Due to the average IQ of Republican voters in that state, her victory in the primaries is almost a foregone conclusion."

Indeed, I'd have to say this is a Racist statement. You're talking about white trash I take it.

Hey, South Carolina, Nikki Haley, Governor, INDIAN AMERICAN, Alan West, elected Representative to congress.

So, Degan calls other people racists but as we all know, the Left are the true racists.

Sweet Home Alabama, ever hear that?? Do you hate all white Southerners?? George Wallace, Democrat, Bull Connor, Democrat,

Martin Luther King, Republican but let's not let facts get in the way.

Aren;'t these precious words too.

"Some of my favorite comedians are the unintentional ones - and Sarah Palin delivers the goods. Just think what a scream the campaign of 2012 would be with her as the grand old party's standard bearer!

Oh, please, fate! Oh, please! Oh, please! Oh, please!

Happy Dr. King Day, everybody!

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
tomdegan@frontiernet.net

Here is an example of some delicious Palinisms, courtesy of the nice folks over at You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrzXLYA_e6E

The gal is a hoot-and-a-half!"

Yeah, Mix in your battering of Women with how great Dr. King is, you are a real judge. And from your tiny mind, You insinuate the Republicans are racists, slam the white race of South Carolina, hey, but happy Dr. Martin Luther King day, again sick hate. What'd he say??

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
Martin Luther King, Jr."

But liberals like Degan don't know this, they just say, Black Man, gets a day on the calendar for a holiday, I'll mix this with a slam on a white woman. Revolting.

 
At 11:08 PM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

Wait,

So now stupidity is considered a race and protected class?

I'm going to have to ask my professor of multicultural studies about adding this to our curriculum on Monday.

Thanks so much Bubba!

 
At 11:18 PM, Anonymous Baron said...

""At a time in his life when he should have been tucked snugly away in an assisted living program somewhere, being spoon-fed oatmeal, Ronald Reagan was living in the Executive Mansion."- Tom Degan

Inquiring minds want to know, "at a time in his life", okay, I bite, what is the magic number that we can put our old folks out to pasture??? Huh??

Coney Island eh? Joe Rollino, 104 years young out on his morning walk and hit by a van in New York City?? Coney Island Strongman? Decorated World War II veteran. Vegetarian, no sugar, swam in the Polar Bears club, 45 minutes in cold water, met Brando, Charles Atlas and more.

http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/news/?p=272

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/nyregion/12ironman.html?_r=1

So, when is it that time in life? Eh? Or is that a discriminatory statement?

 
At 11:44 PM, Anonymous Baron said...

How much will we find: Let's see.

"To no one's surprise, the justices behind this disgusting judicial atrocity were the usual suspects: John Roberts, Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, and, of course, America's favorite "House Nigger", Uncle Thomas." - Tom Degan http://tomdegan.blogspot.com/2010_10_01_archive.html

Well, hold on, it seems some anonymous blogger, no not me, was scolded for using the "n" word.

That's not to say the word isn't thrown around all over the internet and in improper and "proper" forums, but I will call it the "N" word, I don't use it for anything.

"No one on the Supreme Court has been more vocal in his disdain of Affirmative Action than Uncle Thomas.

Question:
Just where do you think Clarence Thomas would be today had it not been for Affirmative Action?

Answer:
He would be mounted on the front lawn of some beer distributor's home in Albany, Georgia - wearing a jockey uniform and holding a lamp."

You can see here, Liberals use blacks as pawns and none can be successful unless Left wing big brother pulls them up.

Black make something of himself without government help? Can't be is their line of thinking.

 
At 12:02 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Bubba "Extremists and Racists, gee whiz, a true populist would take heart that a real grass roots movement was vital in America and effected an election, one of the biggest turnovers ever."
A true populist would notice that, while some of the Tea Partiers fear is very real, it's far from "a real grass roots movement". There's a reason why the movement wasn't a movement until January 20, 2009. They were as mad as hell and weren't going to take it any more, but only when a Republican wasn't in the White House.

"Alan Derschowitz said she used it properly."
Sure. On a side note, Blood Libel is now a meaningless term.
And I'd forgotten about that one. The part I thought amusing was that she was at the time denying that rhetoric leads to violence, and used a term referring to rhetoric that was used to help lead people to violence.

"So, Degan calls other people racists but as we all know, the Left are the true racists."
The history of the GOP post-Nixon, with the Southern Strategy, Atwater Dogwhistle and "Kenyan anti-colonialist" (among others), lay bare that lie.

 
At 12:05 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Bubba "If the Founders intended to found a secular nation, their constitution would have been utterly rejected."
You mean the same Constitution that was attacked at the time as "Godless"?

 
At 12:48 AM, Anonymous Bubba said...

Okay, Modus Operandi, Give some examples, let's not just take your word for it.

Post-Nixon GOP racist, okay, cite examples! Or else more precisely, You lie. Sure, there may be isolated examples, nothing major.

Just take your word for it. Huh?

Ford, Reagan, Bush, Dole, McCain. You sound like Chicken Little. It is this kind of unfounded broad brushing of people that is objectionable and indeed, loathesome.

David Duke ran in the Democratic Primaries of '88 and Republican in '92.

" There's a reason why the movement wasn't a movement until January 20, 2009. They were as mad as hell and weren't going to take it any more, but only when a Republican wasn't in the White House."

People were fed up with Bush's economic policies, his immigration policies. He was on the out. Bush had to back down on immigration.

McCain was milk toast, to bland, to compromising.

A real grass roots movement indeed.

 
At 1:22 AM, Anonymous Baron said...

"Those discussions—recorded in the Congressional Records from June 7 through September 25 of 1789—make clear their intent for the First Amendment. By it, the Founders were saying: "We do not want in America what we had in Great Britain: we don’t want one denomination running the nation. We will not all be Catholics, or Anglicans, or any other single denomination. We do want God’s principles, but we don’t want one denomination running the nation."

This intent was well understood, as evidenced by court rulings after the First Amendment. For example, a 1799 court declared:

"By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing."

Again, note the emphasis: "We do want Christian principles—we do want God’s principles—but we don’t want one denomination to run the nation."

In 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, heard a rumor that the Congregationalist denomination was about to be made the national denomination. That rumor distressed the Danbury Baptists, as it should have. Consequently, the fired off a litter to President Thomas Jefferson voicing their concern. On January 1, 1802, Jefferson wrote the Danbury Baptists, assuring them that "the First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/987191/posts

 
At 1:51 AM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

Hey Bubbie Barron, Here's an example of brazen prejudice and ignorance in the GOP, among other things... I can't help but wonder what Jesus would think about this...

 
At 2:16 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Bubba "Post-Nixon GOP racist, okay, cite examples! Or else more precisely, You lie. Sure, there may be isolated examples, nothing major."
From "welfare queens" to currently in vogue ones like New Black Panthers, ACORN, Shirley Sherrod, "Kenyan usurper", examples of the Southern Strategy are easy to find. They aren't isolated. They're endemic. Playing up white resentment is the basis of the GOP's playing of The Base.

"Ford, Reagan, Bush, Dole, McCain. You sound like Chicken Little. It is this kind of unfounded broad brushing of people that is objectionable and indeed, loathesome."
Not all Republicans use/d/ it. Reagan did. Bush Sr did. Lee Atwater worked for both of them. McCain got burned by it in 2000 by the Rove Machine (and, before you feel sorry for him, keep in mind that he hired part of that same group in 2008).

"David Duke ran in the Democratic Primaries of '88 and Republican in '92."
And he did well in neither. Too much baggage.

"People were fed up with Bush's economic policies, his immigration policies. He was on the out. Bush had to back down on immigration."
Obviously. They were so fed up with his policies that they did nothing until Obama took office. The time line exists. Their actions and inactions fall on a fairly clear demarkation, and the historical record supports my version over theirs.

"A real grass roots movement indeed."
Indeed.

"For example, a 1799 court declared:"
Which court? What level? What was the case? What was the context?
...
Wait. That rhythm...that style...I recognize that... (pause for googling). Ah. Barton.
...
Stop copy-pasting Barton. Barton is a liar. David Barton is to history as Ken Ham is to science.

 
At 3:03 AM, Anonymous Bubba said...

There is censorship, it must hate the truth.

Hate Comes To Orange County: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/hate-comes-to-orange-county-cair-pumps-video-of-anti-muslim-bigots/

"“The ICNA’s hatred of the Jews is so fierce,” notes terrorism analyst Steve Emerson, “that it taunted them with a repetition of what Hitler did to them.”

Heckling wrong, ICNA was protested, JDL, Jewish Defense League is big in SO Cal, no telling who those protesters all were.

 
At 3:06 AM, Anonymous Bubba said...

No, no Barton,

Father McCarthy, Carl Pearlston,

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/987191/posts

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0040.html

Thought the links pushed it out, Degan censors people. That's all there is to it.

 
At 3:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Source Watch? What in the world is that suppose to prove, nothing, Degan is deleting posts, everyone's .... this is off topic but there is vitriol, he called for attention, the remark on Reagan is definitely a bigotted remark, I'll tell that to some person. He doesn't like it but he drew attention to him self, sure he is a nice guy but takes his frustrations out on his whipping boys. so I won't post here, it is not for civil dialogue just from the first cover page.

 
At 3:31 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Bubba "No, no Barton, Father McCarthy, Carl Pearlston..."
My statement stands.
Part of that is from Barton's "America's Godly Heritage". Barton is a liar for Jesus.

Anonymous "Source Watch? What in the world is that suppose to prove, nothing..."
It shows that the "grassroots movement" is astroturf'd.

"Degan is deleting posts"
I think it's the system. It's deleting mine, and mine are awesome. Yours, I assume, fail to reach that standard. Of awesome.

 
At 6:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

modusoperandi, another stupid link that has nothing to do with anything? That proves nothing? Your posts are awesome for losing an argument. If you can't win in a hateful forum like this, you certainly don't in a neutral one.

 
At 6:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Modus Operandi ":My statement stands"

Okay, So you don't like Catholics, this is not what Barton is, You are no different than KKK, they did not like Catholics either.

Like I said, look for Atheists or Pillow Biters to aid the AIDS epidemic or the next earthquake, You have not one good thing in your life to redeem you and now, you are a bully that can't win a argument even in an extreme left wing forum like this. Sad person.

 
At 6:46 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Astro Turfing Tea Parties?

This must be it: http://www.teapartypatriots.org/Search.aspx

They are all over. Oh, sure, conspiracy has them getting these people out. A million in Washington with Glenn Beck, he must control it, I think I saw black helicopters.

Wisconsin State Capital damaged, over 7 million dollars by the Unions, that is Astro Turfing.

And your statement does not stand, people don't even know who in the world is this Barton fellow to begin with.

 
At 9:20 AM, Blogger Mary Mayhem said...

Bubba,

seriously "The Blaze" from Glen Beck?

Thanks. you have made my day. I might actually go to church tonight...haha not really.

 
At 11:08 AM, Anonymous Andon said...

Mary Mayhem Seriously, does a Holocaust Survivor speaking not merit even being reported on?

Seriously, as reported by an Arab Journalist, A Shofar was blown?

"They even sounded a shofar, the ram’s horn usually used in Jewish prayer services. Protester Dena Newman said it, “is also used in battle to announce to the enemy that God’s army is coming.”

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Shocking anti-Muslim hate rally on video - San Francisco Muslim | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/muslim-in-san-francisco/shocking-anti-muslim-hate-rally-on-video#ixzz1FjtPxG00

And so these are Republicans and White Tea Party people?

 
At 11:32 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Anonymous "modusoperandi, another stupid link that has nothing to do with anything?"
Really? Are you that willfully ignorant?
The USA, where "Organized by Dick Armey and his family, funded by the Mom & Pop coal and gas corporations behind the AEA and Americans for Prosperity and relentlessly pushed by the befreckled kid on the corner with the paper" equals "grassroots".

 
At 11:33 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Anonymous "Okay, So you don't like Catholics, this is not what Barton is, You are no different than KKK, they did not like Catholics either."
Red Herring. I never mentioned Barton's sect, nor would it make a difference. Whether or not he's from one group or another would have no effect on his arguments. He's not wrong because he's [I assume] some kind of Protestant. He's wrong because his version of history is an out-of-context, ellipsis-filled, non-sequitur'd attempt to make an ideologue's view of history actual history.

 
At 11:35 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Anonymous "Wisconsin State Capital damaged, over 7 million dollars…"
Seven million? Are you using Beckonomics ("I saw a story recently…you might have heard about something like it…a University…from I don't know where...did a study…or something...that said it would cost seven million dollars to clean up.")? Considering that it cost only $5.3 million to clean and restore the entire exterior of the Capitol ten years ago, your partisan math ("PartiMath") has multiplied somewhere it should have added.
Care to try again?

 
At 11:35 AM, Blogger Modusoperandi said...

Anonymous "...dollars by the Unions, that is Astro Turfing."
Obviously. Union members showing up to support their (and other) unions is exactly the same thing as Americans for Prosperity bussing in a bunch of retirees to support the right of coal companies not to have their profit margin cut by Cap & Trade.

"And your statement does not stand, people don't even know who in the world is this Barton fellow to begin with."
People not knowing who he is has no effect on the falsity of his arguments. You not knowing who he is doesn't make him any less wrong.
You do know that your ignorance has no effect on what objective reality is, right?

 
At 1:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

MO,

BUTT out of the USA's business. Take care of your problems in Canada, your solutions are not welcome here unless you want to pick up the tab.
Who cares what you think about what OUR 1st Lady says or eats, it's none of your business. Unless you want to either move here and subject yourself to her plans, or want Canada to become a territory of the USA.
BUTT OUT!

 
At 2:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I love how Anonymous has to resort to "OMG YOU'RE NOT AMERICAN, YOUR OPINION DOESN'T MATTER, I CAN'T HEAR YOU" to be able to form a response to Modusoperandi's posts. It speaks volumes.

 
At 4:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey stupid, re-read the post, knee jerk liberal ass wipe!

 
At 11:18 PM, Blogger Chris said...

LOVE Matt....his article is great as usual...out of the park!

 
At 1:49 PM, Blogger jack mckee said...

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At 7:05 PM, Anonymous Suzannji said...

Hey Tom,YOU RULE!

 
At 7:16 PM, Blogger Tom Degan's Daily Rant said...

Thank you! I don't know who you are, but you have made my day. Seriously!

All the best,

Tom

 

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