Defending Malcolm X
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| Minister Malcolm, circa 1960 |
FULL DISCLOSURE: It is my belief that Malcolm X was one of the great Americans of the twentieth century. Hold that thought.If I were to list the top ten citizens of this doomed country in that period, he would definitely be on that list. Perhaps I might even place him above Dr. King during that time. His was a spiritual rags-to-riches saga that, with the possible exception of Thomas Merton, few people have matched. His troubled youth (including the murder of his father, possibly by the KKK, and a long prison stretch) would have left a lesser man bitter and dysfunctional. Malcolm X ended his short time on this earth on the mountaintop. He is a person to be emulated, not disparaged. We should all be channeling our inner Malcolm.
`
I was living and working in Naples, Florida in 1986 when I obtained a copy of his memoirs, The Autobiography of Malcolm X, which was co-written by Alex Haley, who would later go on to write the saga, Roots. To tell you that the book changed my life would be understating it: I was completely floored by reading it. This is ironic because - at that time anyway - Naples had the smallest percentage of African American residents in the nation. That might still be the case. In the thirty-two years since that time, no other memoir has surpassed it. Walter Cronkite once said that it is one of the few books of that troubled century that people will still be reading five-hundred years into the future. I'm inclined to agree. I can't recommend it enough.
In the years following his assassination in February of 1965, Malcolm X's historical image has been rehabilitated. In his time he was viewed with fear and loathing by white America - and even a rather large segment of mainstream black America as well. Certainly, there had never been anyone to enter the national consciousness like this guy. No passive, smiling and accommodating "negro" was he; this was a man on fire. Although he was not in favor of integration for much of his public life, a pilgrimage to Mecca a year before his death had enabled him see that the races could live with and even love each other. The easiest cliché about Malcolm was that he advocated violence against white people. What he advocated was self-defense - a huge difference. His philosophy, which he stated publicly too many times to count, was that people should be non-violent with others who also practiced non-violence. "That is common sense. But if someone should attack you or your wife and children, you send them to the cemetery". That could be a slogan for the National Rifle Association if you think about it.
All of this went racing through my mind when I read this week of the case of Malcolm Xavier Combs. He is a senior who attends Christ the King High School in Brooklyn. The "controversy" (call it what you want) he generated was simply that he wanted the name "Malcolm X" embroidered onto his senior-year sweat shirt. The school administration told him that the name was unacceptable. At a meeting with blank-faced school officials, Malcolm Xavier's mother, Mychelle, asked them if they even know who Malcolm X was or what he stood for. Their response was simply that Malcolm is part of the curriculum. So, I presume, is Adolf Hitler. A lame defense if I ever heard one. Seriously.
Malcolm Xavier's desire to Malcolmize his school shirt has only turned him into a cause celebre. Not only has he gained national media attention, but Malcolm X's own daughter, Ilyasah Shabazz - not to mention Al Sharpton and the Action Network - have come to his defense. This kid is an honor student, and he has the appearance and demeanor of the All American Boy. It would seem to me that the school personnel could have avoided a few headaches by merely allowing him to proudly display the name of his namesake and hero. In the end they might find out it wasn't worth all the fuss.
There are schools and boulevards named for Malcolm. There was a US postage stamp issued in his honor back in the nineties - a fact that I had totally forgotten all about until I was reminded of it this week. There have been numerous books and filmed documentaries written and produced about his life. It's not as if Malcolm X. Holmes had wanted to put the name of the president of the United States on his shirt. Now that is something that would have caused a reasonable debate! But this is hardly reasonable - far from reasonable, in fact. The historical validity of so important a figure as Malcolm X is not a debate we should be having in 2018. I'm just sayin'.
The nice folks over at Christ the King High School really need to get with the program. Malcolm X deserves better than that. So, in fact, does Malcolm X. Combs.
Malcolm X was a great American. But I repeat myself.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
SUGGESED READING:
The Autobiography of Malcolm X
by Malcolm X with Alex Haley
Again, I cannot emphasize enough the impact this excellent book had on my life. Here is a link to order it off of Amazon.com:
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_18?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+autobiography+of+malcolm+x&sprefix=The+Autobiography+%2Caps%2C243&crid=16CM7KMMNM0J8
This is a book that every white person needs to read.
SUGGESED VIEWING:
Here's an interview that Malcolm did with Mike Wallace eight months before his death:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZb5BRNOtA
The man was the real thing.
In the years following his assassination in February of 1965, Malcolm X's historical image has been rehabilitated. In his time he was viewed with fear and loathing by white America - and even a rather large segment of mainstream black America as well. Certainly, there had never been anyone to enter the national consciousness like this guy. No passive, smiling and accommodating "negro" was he; this was a man on fire. Although he was not in favor of integration for much of his public life, a pilgrimage to Mecca a year before his death had enabled him see that the races could live with and even love each other. The easiest cliché about Malcolm was that he advocated violence against white people. What he advocated was self-defense - a huge difference. His philosophy, which he stated publicly too many times to count, was that people should be non-violent with others who also practiced non-violence. "That is common sense. But if someone should attack you or your wife and children, you send them to the cemetery". That could be a slogan for the National Rifle Association if you think about it.
 |
| Malcolm X. Combs |
Malcolm Xavier's desire to Malcolmize his school shirt has only turned him into a cause celebre. Not only has he gained national media attention, but Malcolm X's own daughter, Ilyasah Shabazz - not to mention Al Sharpton and the Action Network - have come to his defense. This kid is an honor student, and he has the appearance and demeanor of the All American Boy. It would seem to me that the school personnel could have avoided a few headaches by merely allowing him to proudly display the name of his namesake and hero. In the end they might find out it wasn't worth all the fuss.
The nice folks over at Christ the King High School really need to get with the program. Malcolm X deserves better than that. So, in fact, does Malcolm X. Combs.
Malcolm X was a great American. But I repeat myself.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
SUGGESED READING:
The Autobiography of Malcolm X
by Malcolm X with Alex Haley
Again, I cannot emphasize enough the impact this excellent book had on my life. Here is a link to order it off of Amazon.com:
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_18?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+autobiography+of+malcolm+x&sprefix=The+Autobiography+%2Caps%2C243&crid=16CM7KMMNM0J8
This is a book that every white person needs to read.
SUGGESED VIEWING:
Here's an interview that Malcolm did with Mike Wallace eight months before his death:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZb5BRNOtA
The man was the real thing.
posted by Tom Degan @ 8:03 AM
56 comments
56 Comments:
Tom,
You left out that Malcolm was first a follower of the Nation of Islam, who assassinated him in 1965. While a member of the NOI he preached that:
that black people are the original people of the world
that white people are "devils"
that blacks are superior to whites
that the demise of the white race is imminent.
"By March 1964, Malcolm X had grown disillusioned with the Nation of Islam and its leader Elijah Muhammad. Expressing many regrets about his time with them, which he had come to regard as largely wasted, he embraced Sunni Islam. He repudiated the Nation of Islam, disavowed racism and founded Muslim Mosque, Inc. and the Organization of Afro-American Unity. He continued to emphasize Pan-Africanism, black self-determination, and black self-defense." Wikipedia
It is important to realize that while a member of the NOI he was, by anyone's definition, a racist. Ironically most of his writing and speeches that are remembered are from his time as a spokesperson for the NOI. Which is tragic as his racism ended when he left the NOI and disavowed black racism, but he didn't live long enough for this change to complete it's evolution. Sadly we mainly have his most racist and radical works to remember him by.
That Obama was endorsed by the NOI and had photo's taken with Louis Farrakhan should cause people to pause when evaluating his Presidency and it's imapact on race relations.
To believe in segregation is not only a racist attitude, but poor judgment of reality. To think one could have a segregated society within a free society, is pure folly. The fact that he changed his mind does show he was a better man than the founding fathers who went to their graves still defending slavery despite their good words in our founding documents, which they wrote.
It's folly to call people great, or hero worship any person. That's a blind look at imperfect humans who also make bad mistakes. I can't call people great when they were supporters of slavery, or the genocide of Native Americans, but that's the decision of history for some of our forefathers. Lincoln, FDR, and many other so called great leaders have the stain of committing crimes against the people and the breaking the Constitution. Do we overlook those "mistakes" for the greater good?
Malcolm X will always have a stain on his reputation; not just for the misrepresentation of his views, but the reality of some of his positions.
In those days it seems we settled our differences with murder, assassination, and violence. One wonders how different the world would be if X, MLK, JFK, RFK, and many others got to live out their lives. Could we accept Trump being assassinated because he is so disliked?
Whether Malcolm X's words were misrepresented, or not his position brought opposition to MLK's non-violent position and encouraged groups like the Black Panthers and Malcolm X wasn't screaming for that thinking to stop. The thinking then was he incited his own murder and it seems there is truth in that, of course that's not OK, but it was a reality back then.
Tom, while in high school I read Aldridge Cleaver's excellent book, Soul on Ice, where he spoke admirably about Malcolm and very candidly and angrily about the black man's plight in America.
The book was published in 1968, and has since been banned in many school districts and libraries, since then, due to its brutal honesty.
That was fifty years ago and still the same disregard for black and other people of color still persists. The mentality of the original legal standard of "three-fifths of a person" hasn't changed.
If I were a black man, I'd be pissed too.
Young Malcolm's "teachers" are proving how con-servatives still hold to their bigotry and ignorance. And cruelty.
Combs, a student at Christ the King High School, told the Daily News that a school administrator, Veronica Arbitello, called him to her office to talk about his request to have the name on his sweater.
“[She] told me … that’s someone I don’t want to be associated with,” Combs said. “All I wanted was the ‘X.’ My name is Malcolm Xavier Combs.”
But Arbitello took it one step further and then started to mock Combs for his request. The administrator laughed with her husband, Coach Joe Arbitello, about the name and introduced him as “the new Malcolm X.”
“I felt insulted,” Combs said. “They just laughed at me … that’s my name, Malcolm X, not a nickname.”
https://thegrio.com/2018/02/12/malcolm-xavier-combs-sweater/
Clucky, where do you get the crap you spew? Malcom X Leaves the NOI and denounces them, but to YOU he'll ALWAYS be a "terrorist". Robert Byrd was KKK for about a year, and for the rest of his life denounced them, but to YOU he'll always be "Grand Dragon".
I also noticed you don't promote the Communist websites as much now that trump is in bed with Putin and the entire house of cards is about to collapse under him.
The Nunes memo HELPED Muller's case, and blocking the Dem response sure wasn't the actions of an innocent man..
Remember the question I asked that you were too much of a coward to answer? Well, Trump just SCREWED the poor and middle class, but that's the GOP way.
Oh and Clucky, since homo sapiens originated in AFRICA, Blacks WERE the "original people of the world" Whites certainly acted "evil" and if you've ever watched a sporting event Blacks ARE superior athletes, and there are just as many Black Geniuses as White ones. Eventually, through "cross breeding" there will be no White people. Of course there will be no Black people either, but the statement as written is factual.
Given that Whites commit more murder, MASS murder, rape and pedophilia by ratio than any other ethnic group (Meaning the fact that there are more white people in the USA has nothing to do with it)Maybe Blacks aren't the "Master race" but they sure have White people beat.
Mozart, Chuck said on T. Paine's blog just recently that blacks are more prone to commit crime by virtue of their race. When I countered that the reason high crime rates are disproportionately high in black neighborhoods is due to poverty -- not their race -- he responded again with a meaningless diatribe of misleading statistics in order to prove it was a black problem -- not a problem associated with their by-and-large lower socio-economic status.
When I remarked, very pointedly, that his stance is the very definition of racism, Mr. Paine stepped in to ask me to leave his blog. When I refused, Mr. Paine instituted comment review prior to publication -- effectively prohibiting my viewpoints on Chuck's overt statements of racism to be allowed.
One of my last comments directed to Mr. Paine was that he condoned Chuck's racism by looking the other way. From that time until the present I've, for all practical purposes, been censored against speaking out against Chuck's racism on Mr. Paine's blog.
In these times, while a racist demagogue resides in the White House, it's imperative that all people of good conscience speak out against racism and racist acts - no matter the circumstances, and no matter the perpetrator. Always.
A racist character named "Archie Bunker" wants to lecture us on who's a racist???
LOL!!!!!!
JG, Like a good conservative, T. Paine knows his views won't stand up to close scrutiny. Because of that he has to censor them. Our local Craigs list "Rants and Raves" does the same thing ANYTHING that either defends a Liberal or contradicts a conservative is flagged and removed. It's the same thing Trump is trying to do with the press. He couldn't wait to release the Nunes Memo against the STRONG objections from the intelligence community over sensitive material, yet predictably blocked the Dem Memo for being "classified".
Clucky the COWARD can't answer on subject because he knows we are right, so he replies to posts with of topic BS and long debunked accusations. But ask him a simple logical question....
Note how my post here has had ZERO response about the subject of this thread from the lefties, JG, MO, and jG. Instead they post lies like MO's false information...BTW Mozart, the FBI reports that Blacks being 26.6% of the population commit......
51.1% of murders and non-negligent manslaughter.
28.2% of rapes.
53.5% of robbery's.
IS the truth racist?
Mr. Paine explained why he asked jG and Dave to leave his blog, read them if you want the truth, instead of the lie posted here by jG. Rain has had to ask Dave and jG to leave her blog, just a coincident?
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=408858764761620479&postID=4220774077988465411&isPopup=true&bpli=1
"Sadly folks, due to the continued ungentlemanly behavior of Jefferson's Guardian and his unwillingness to abide by my request to take his venom and lies elsewhere, comment moderation will unfortunately be enforced going forward. I will strive to be on top of comments submitted so that there is as little delay to their posting as possible."
T. Paine
1/26/2018
Mozart I am convinced that your IQ and shoe size are the same.
Clucky, no one buys your bullshit SPUN stats. Blacks are arrested and jailed for things white people are given warnings for. Everyone with a brain knows this. No one buys anything you say, AND we KNOW you are using several names here.
Who exactly are you trying to fool?
T. Paine, like trump cannot handle opposing views. He wants a blog filled with ONE opinion so he can feel intelligent.
Mueller is currently handing out more subpoenas, one of which is going to Milania. Given Trumps love of throwing ANYONE under the bus to save his own skin, what do you think she will say? It better be the truth.
Oh and Clucky, I do not have size 145 feet, but thanks for proving everything I say about you with that childish attempt at insult. Your AGE and shoe size must be the same.
Go back to Craig's List, it's about your speed.
Mozart is so dumb even Craig's List deletes his posts.
Sad.
"Blacks are arrested and jailed for things white people are given warnings for."
Murder?
What kind of fool are you?
145
Is that all?
HOLD THE PRESSES ! This is too much, Stormy is going to test her dress for Trumps DNA !!! If it works out I will dieing of laughter.
The whole Ken Starr thing was the lowest of dirty politics and I am not the biggest Bill Clinton fan either. I await the results.
"T. Paine knows his views won't stand up to close scrutiny. Because of that he has to censor them." ~~ Mozart1220
Agreed.
"Rain has had to ask Dave and jG to leave her blog, just a coincident? [sic]" ~~ Majormajor (aka Chuck)
I can't speak for Dave, but I've never visited Rain's blog -- not knowingly, at least. Chuck, does habitual and chronic lying ever weigh on your conscience? (Just a rhetorical question, really, because apparently not.)
And you'll have to do a better job with your link. It was worthless.
No surprise.
Mr. Paine's double standards and intolerance became tiring. He would coddle his little sidekick after he leveled false accusations and use of name calling like "Commie Dave".
IOKIYAR is the Golden Rule for Con-servatives. Always has been. Always will be.
At the other blog, MajorMajor's alias squealed like a stuck pig when I noted the school shooter is a fellow MAGA hat-wearing hater.
I have a new term for their cult. MAGAts. Like it?
“When I remarked, very pointedly, that his stance is the very definition of racism, Mr. Paine stepped in to ask me to leave his blog. When I refused, Mr. Paine instituted comment review prior to publication -- effectively prohibiting my viewpoints on Chuck's overt statements of racism to be allowed. One of my last comments directed to Mr. Paine was that he condoned Chuck's racism by looking the other way. From that time until the present I've, for all practical purposes, been censored against speaking out against Chuck's racism on Mr. Paine's blog.” ~ Jefferson Guardian
JG, you sir are a liar and a hateful one at that. Let’s examine the actual facts of the account in question. First, I have had my blog for years and have never once censored or deleted the thousands of opposing views in all of that time, including yours. I have always invited you to share your opinions, with my only caveat being that you do so civilly. You seemingly are incapable of doing so and it was your HATEFULLNESS and juvenile name calling that prompted me to ask you to leave; it was not your opposing viewpoints. Our comments from that episode follows:
“Jefferson's Guardian, you have become so nasty that there really is no point in even attempting to discuss things with you anymore. You, like Dave Dubya, love nothing more than the heat of the fight and to belittle those that have the temerity to disagree with you. I have tolerated the both of you for far too long with the hopes that you would at least return to arguing your points as gentlemen, sadly to no avail. I do not need the two of you to raise my comment counts when the very quantity of them are filled with hate and nastiness. That is not what I ever intended for this blog to be used. That said, I would greatly appreciate it if you both would leave my blog and not return accordingly. I have no more use for the sophomoric name calling and hate that is part and parcel of both of your debating strategies. Please just leave. You can whine and lie about me, as JG already is, on Tom's or other folk's blogs. That said, I wish you both well regardless. Cheers.” ~ T. Paine You responded:
“If you're so uncomfortable with the truth, and being called out on your own verbous opinions and deliberate misleading editorial, please feel free to resort to screening comments before publication. Otherwise, I see no reason to voluntarily leave just so you can feel comfortable promoting authoritarian extremism and ignoring one particular reader's coded racism and bigotry. Your looking the other way only makes it appear you agree.” – J.G.
Mr. Dubya was at least a gentleman and abided by my wishes and left voluntarily. You, however, stated you would not, and hence the reason for my establishing comment moderation, J.G. If you would have debated and offered opinions without being hateful and nasty to me and others such as Rain, I would have never felt the need to ask you to leave my blog. What a miserable life you must live in which everyone that disagrees with you is a target for your venom. Sadly, many of the “facts” you rely upon are skewed at best and outright fabrications at worst. Your untruthful characterization of your expulsion from my blog is simply the last instance of your dissembling. If you wish to perpetrate lies, then perhaps changing your moniker to William Jefferson Clinton’s Guardian would be more apropos.
As for Mr. Mozart, for having seemingly taken your moniker from a prodigy whom was a musical genius, you are remarkably tone deaf to the truth. Even you are welcome to voice your opinions and opposing view points on my blog, IF you can do so without resorting to incivility and nastiness. Based on what I see on Mr. Degan's blog, I am doubtful. If you had actually checked out my blog, you would have already known that I have years of articles with many opposing comments clearly posted after each. I want discussion and debate; not school yard taunts, bullying, and hatefulness. If you accept that premise, you are more than welcome to state your opinion and tell me where I am wrong on Saving Common Sense, sir. If not, please stay here in Tom's echo chamber and continue the path you have chosen.
"MAGAts"... Yes! So appropriate! LOL
"If you would have debated and offered opinions without being hateful and nasty to me and others such as Rain, I would have never felt the need to ask you to leave my blog." ~~ T. Paine
And, of course, you neglect to cite specific words you deem "hateful and nasty".
Is this another example of your rightwing illusion, "sir"? ;-)
Please cite evidence and we'll let the "jury" decide.
JG has always been a perfect gent on this site.
Even though I disagree with Mr.Paine 95% of the time and agree with Dave and JG 100% of the time I have still come the conclusion that Mr.Paine is a good person. That has enabled me to interact with him without getting too angry and aggressive.
Debating politics in a small intimate setting such as on Paine's blog with just a few people is a very challenging endeavor if you want it to last. Not that I can take too much credit as Dave and JG commented far more than I which makes it much harder to stay polite.
I did see this blowup happening a mile away though as I thought Dave and JG were getting too aggressive and personal with Mr.Paine and he lasted far longer than I thought he would. I brought this up with both of them and they agreed with me but a lasting peace was never in the cards.
In that setting you have to able to accept a very small amount of success, I might get Paine to agree with me that Trump is a terrible president as far as the environment goes, the other 234 subjects, not so much.
Woodenman, I appreciate your honesty and decency. No, we seldom agree politically but I respect and even admire you for your integrity, civility, and your willingness to share your thoughts with me in a mature manner on my site. I hope you will always continue to do so, sir.
For the record, I am embarrassed by Trump's behavior often times. He is a boor and certainly not statesman-like. Further, I agree that many of Trump's environmental policies are a travesty. As I have stated even on Tom's blog, I think it is foolish and dangerous the way he has taunted Kim Jong Un and that evil regime. Also, I think his latest budget is a joke and only further expands our national debt. I am sure there are other things we would find agreement on, and many more that we would not; however, I am glad that we can discuss those things without devolving to playground name calling, my friend!
Mr. Degan, if you were to strongly challenge J.G.'s position on any given subject, chances are his gentlemanly behavior towards you would soon disappear sir.
"I am glad that we can discuss those things without devolving to playground name calling, my friend!" ~~ T. Paine (to James)
The implication being, of course, that I do. ;-)
Mr. Paine, I laid down the challenge and asked you to cite the "hateful and nasty" opinions (at 2:40 PM, above) you claim I've made toward you and Rain. My hope was that the "court of public opinion" would sit as the arbitrator of your accusations. Still, to this point, you haven't presented your evidence -- only more accusations of ungentlemanly behavior (whatever you conceive that to be).
And Rain, if you're "listening", please feel free to assist Mr. Paine in his claim I've responded to you in a "hateful" or "nasty" way.
Furthermore, your claim of my "untruthful characterization of your expulsion from my blog is simply the last instance of your dissembling" is an obvious lie, isn't it Mr. Paine? Both you and I know that I've presented two different comments for publication on your blog since you instituted comment moderation, and you've declined to publish either.
Nonetheless, Mr. Paine, you realize my objections toward you revolve around your hypocritical and double standards when it comes to allowing the overt and coded racist extremism of your brown-nosing alt-right sidekick -- yet call me down for calling him out on it.
I've told you this (and you even reposted it above), yet you allow it. Your refusal to denounce his behavior is atrocious enough, so you remain silent and allow it to continue.
Tsk, tsk, Mr. Paine, for this is the real reason you label me a liar and disapprove of my commentary. Isn't it?
There is something I like to point out, Dave and JG never got into insulting Mr. Paine, they just pushed the debate past his comfort zone and a blowup was inevitable. Sometimes being brutally honest ends relationships as it did here. They both agreed with at one point it is better to be less aggressive in trying to win the debate so more debating can be had in the future.
But there always was a fly in the ointment and that was Chuck, in fairness he should of been the one that is banned as he relentlessly taunted and insulted Dave on a daily basis. Since he had the unconditional support of Mr.Paine he felt free to do so. I would of commented more myself at times but I wanted to avoid getting into the violent arguments that I used to on this site. I think my hostility towards Chuck in the past played a part in Tom moderating comments.
I have no idea if a accommodation could be worked out in the future between the three or if any of them has that desire but it would have to be a given that Chucks insults would have to eliminated or censored before they are posted.
If Dave and JG ever get back to posting on Mr. Paine's blog I will join them, until then I will just hang out here.
T. Paine,
God bless you for lasting this long with the Marxist collectivists JG and the very thin skinned Dave Dubya who cries racism more than the boy who cries wolf.
"God bless you for lasting this long..." ~~ ArchieBunkerNYC (aka, Chuck)
"...god bless us, everyone!" ~~ Tiny Tim
LOL
God loves everyone, huh Chuck? Even racists.
"The implication being, of course, that I do." (devolve to playground name calling) ~ J.G.
No, I wasn't trying to imply anything actually. I was simply thanking James for being a decent person.
That said, I will be explicit with you J.G. You are absolutely uncivil in the past recent months. You haven't always been like this, but evidently something has changed over time.
But what do I know? I simply a "blowhard" spewing my "meanderings of deliberate deceitfulness and untruthfulness" along with my "little buddy, Gilligan."
No, your nastiness and hate are "nonexistent", J.G. I have tried to retain some semblance of civility with you in the past, but even trying to address you with respect by calling you sir results in you cynically and sarcastically responding to me as "sir" in quotation marks. It is a piddling thing, but the constant name calling, charges of racism, authoritarianism, "Trumpism", etc. so distract from any meaningful discussion as to make a civil debate impossible.
But then, that doesn't seem to be what you and Mr. Dubya want anymore anyway, right? You two would be lost without Majormajor to beat up on. It is boring to stay in an echo chamber where everyone parrots the exact same views all the time, isn't it? I suspect you two like and indeed thrive on the fight as a means of trying to feel intellectually superior. Hey, fine be me. It is still a relatively free country, so have at it ... just not on my site. And James, you are mistaken, my friend. I have been the target of J.G.'s insults on many occasions. I can take it as I put no stock in insults from someone who does not know me even in the slightest, but it gets really annoying when anyone that has the temerity to agree with me on a given topic is immediately denigrated or insulted too, whether it was Carrie or Rain or whomever.
It is ironic that Mr. Degan sees only your "gent" behavior even on his own blog. Granted, you are attacked as well, but at this point it really is all about the fight, isn't it?
Further, J.G., if I requested for you to please leave my blog, to which you nastily refused as you seemed to feel the need to "correct" my "lies", thus causing me to have to initiate comment moderation in the first place, why do you think I would publish subsequent comments from you after that fact? You don't get it. I don't want your name calling, hatefulness, and falsehoods on my site. That doesn't automatically invalidate all of your comments, but the fact that you cannot state them civilly means they will no longer be aired by me.
For what it is worth, I do sincerely apologize for not always calling Chuck out when he went over the line too. And this apology is for both Dave and you.
I guess the fact that he was constantly tag teamed, denoted as a racist (which he is not), and even chastised by you and Dave to the point of his very salvation being denied by you both, well... I don't think that qualifies as civil behavior. Do you?
Last, God does indeed love everyone, J.G. That doesn't mean that He is always pleased with how we choose to live our lives though.
Calling a proven liar a liar is just stating a fact. If you take offense to that Toilet Paper maybe you should stop your lying.
Now get back to calling people who choose to have a legal abortion, murderers. Then cry about others insulting you Toilet Paper.
You refuse to accept American law, so I suggest you move to another country.
You and Trump seem to have the same character, good for you, enjoy yourselves.
"You are absolutely uncivil in the past recent months. You haven't always been like this, but evidently something has changed over time. ~~ T. Paine"
You characterize my comments as being "uncivil" Not so. More assertive, yes.
As far as not always being "like this", you're right. We haven't always had a demagogue racist occupying the White House, either.
But what do I know? ~~ T. Paine
From my perspective, only rightwing, Trumpist and/or corporatist talking points.
"But then, [civil debate] doesn't seem to be what you and Mr. Dubya want anymore anyway, right?" ~~ T. Paine
Civil debate cannot occur in an acidic atmosphere of racism and intentional provocation. Talk to your president about this, along with the lying majority party in our Congress.
"Granted, you are attacked as well, but at this point it really is all about the fight, isn't it?" ~~ T. Paine
Mr. Paine, once again I refer to both your provoking posts and your racist, xenophobic and war-mongering president. When you support him in any way, you support these abhorrent qualities also. That's your choice, but please don't expect me to "go along to get along". Those days are past.
And yes, we are in a fight; the fight of our lives. You just haven't figured this out yet.
"You don't get it. I don't want your name calling, hatefulness, and falsehoods on my site." ~~ T. Paine
The pot calling the kettle black, Mr. Paine. Again, I see you've learned well from your president.
"...I do sincerely apologize for not always calling Chuck out when he went over the line too. And this apology is for both Dave and you." ~~ T. Paine
"Not always calling Chuck out"?!?! How 'bout never?!
Does this mean you're going to call-out Chuck from this point forward -- on your blog and here? If so, apology accepted. If not...
"[Chuck] was constantly tag teamed, denoted as a racist (which he is not)..." ~~ T.Paine
Oh boo-hoo, Mr. Paine -- poor little itty-bitty Chuckie was bullied? Cry me a river. I have no sympathy for racists -- which his comments, and his alt-right affiliation, indicate he is.
"...and even chastised by you and Dave to the point of his very salvation being denied by you both..." ~~ T. Paine
Gee, Mr. Paine, I didn't realize I held such power! LOL
"That doesn't mean that [god] is always pleased with how we choose to live our lives though." ~~ T. Paine
Don't forget that, Mr. Paine, as you support the corporate state's stealing from our country's people, our commons, and our treasure.
JG, you are indeed pompous and arrogant. I offered you a sincere apology and you turn around and put caveats on accepting it as if I should kowtow to you. Amazing. At this point, I couldn't care less if you accept it or not.
Oh, and by the way, I did call Chuck out in public a few times, and even spoke with him in private about it at least once or twice that I recall.
Further, there is a distinct difference between being assertive and belligerent or mean-spirited. You are the latter these days. If you think otherwise, you need to a new dictionary to look up the meaning of the former.
You justify your nastiness on Trump being in the White House. Well, I didn't vote for him and I do call him out on issues when I don't support him. I have even done so on Tom's blog, but since I am not goosestepping with you and the rest of your anti-fascist Fascists in complete agreement of hate against even the good things he has done or proposed, then I am part of the problem to your mind.
That is akin to the idiot Republicans in congress that refused to even acknowledge any of Obama's proposals simply because they came from him. That is why we have grid lock. We don't look at individual issues anymore but rather at what the "party" or ideology of the right of left deems as correct and never do we stray from that... even if a proposed idea from a political adversary is a good one. It takes a special kind of nasty fool to dismiss a good idea simply because one despises the source of it. Or perhaps that is simply a gross immaturity.
But as we have already determined, you are not interested in an exchange of ideas or solutions. You simply enjoy fighting and burning things down.
Paul, you are similarly a part of the problem and a damned ignorant one at that. It was the law (and thus legal) in Nazi Germany to turn in any Jew so that they could be exterminated. It wasn't moral or right, but it was legal... just like the killing of unborn innocent life is legal but immoral here today.
Oh, and do tell where I have lied? A lie is saying something you know is not true. I certainly don't think I have done so here.
Yeah, Mr. Degan, your blog is full of folks that are "perfect gents".
Sad.
"At this point, I couldn't care less if you accept [my apology] or not."
If you're not willing to give up your two sets of standards and your inate hypocrisy, I could care less either, Mr. Paine.
"...I did call Chuck out in public a few times, and even spoke with him in private about it at least once or twice that I recall."
Yeah, I'm sure you did. ;-) Yet you allowed him to continue and then publicly reprimanded me as the the reason for your comment screening.
What's wrong with this picture, Mr. Paine?
Well, JG, regardless of whether perhaps you didn't read the comments where I told Chuck to dial it back or whether your short-term memory is lapsing, I do not know. Perhaps another doobie would help with the latter though...
Mr. Paine, you're correct that I didn't read it. Maybe that's because you never wrote it. ;-)
Perhaps a "doobie" would help...to lighten the drone of your regressive viewpoints and propaganda.
Have you ever smoked, Mr. Paine?...or were you one of those tight-assed engineering nerds I remember with the pencil protectors and "high-waters" in college?
JG, I find it interesting what you think I wrote and did not write. For example, I have never written anything in support of racism, authoritarianism, or fascism, (indeed, just the opposite is true) and yet you have either implicitly or explicitly claimed that I have. I have written to Chuck to dial it back both privately and in my blog comments, and you think I have not. Sounds to me like you are trying to build up your progressive resume by spreading fake news as an aficionado. Are you looking to go to work for CNN perhaps? Or is that too "corporate" for you? Perhaps Mother Jones is likely more your speed.
Next, while I used to drink a fair amount in my younger days and still have the occasional drink, I am proud to say that I have not ever partaken in any drug use in my entire life. To this day, I have NEVER seen any good come to those that have done so. Thus far, you are not convincing me otherwise.
When I went to school, I was already in the military. I did not see the worthwhile-ness of being just another Spiccoli. America already has enough fools and idiots without me adding to their ranks. Instead, I chose to serve, defend, and protect our flawed but still greatest of nations. I chose to build something up and contribute to our society, instead of allowing myself to be indoctrinated by the Howard Zinn-type of professors that simply wanted to tear down America and focus on all of our dark flaws.
It is always incumbent upon us to learn the truth about our country, even the bad, so that we can try not to repeat our past mistakes. Unfortunately, most of our far leftist friends simply want to fixate and wallow in those issues instead of actually working to make things better. Oh, their intentions might be good, but their execution of a useful plan is always lacking, at best. Perhaps that is why a few joints smoked helps them to cope with their negative world view of America. For the record, pot is not a vegetable and thus it is not good for you, JG. (I assume you don't have a medical need for it.) To each his own, but also, what you sow is what you will indeed reap, and I am not talking about pot in this instance.
"I have never written anything in support of racism, authoritarianism, or fascism..." ~~ T. Paine
Anybody supporting the current demagogue occupying the White House, by default, supports racism and (corporate)fascism.
Authoritarianism, on the other hand, is a trait inherent in all conservatives and Republicans. Until you can truly live by the philosophy of "live, and let live", you'll always be trying to direct and change other's lives. Your stance on drugs, and people who partake in cannabis in particular, is just one example of this characteristic in you.
"...CNN perhaps? Or is that too 'corporate' for you? Perhaps Mother Jones is likely more your speed." ~~ T. Paine
Yes, CNN is absolutely corporate mainstream media. Don't you agree? (Oh, I'm sorry, that's right...you still think it's "liberal media". LOL)
Mother Jones is an excellent publication. You should read it sometime. Actually, all the time. You'll finally learn something.
"I am proud to say that I have not ever partaken in any drug use in my entire life." ~~ T. Paine
I might have guessed. What prescription drugs are you taking? Anything for high blood pressure? Anything to allow you to have a love life? ;-)
"To this day, I have NEVER seen any good come to those that have done so." ~~ T. Paine
Cannabis is harmless, as are most hallucinogens if used with respect and used properly. Everything in moderation, Mr. Paine, alcohol included.
"Thus far, you are not convincing me otherwise." ~~ T. Paine
I'm not trying to convince you. You're way too high-strung to be able to enjoy the experience of the moment. It would be a waste on you. ;-)
"When I went to school, I was already in the military." ~~ T. Paine
That explains a lot. (See my thoughts on authoritarianism, above.)
"I chose to serve, defend, and protect our flawed but still greatest of nations." ~~ T. Paine
Defend against what, exactly?...boogeymen created out of thin air in order to support the military-industrial-complex?
First it was communists, then terrorists. What's next? LOL
No thanks. I was, and continue to be, smarter than that.
"It is always incumbent upon us to learn the truth about our country, even the bad, so that we can try not to repeat our past mistakes." ~~ T. Paine
So why are you still a conservative? You haven't learned a damn thing, yet, have you?
"...most of our far leftist friends simply want to fixate and wallow in those issues instead of actually working to make things better." ~~ T. Paine
Work is being done, each and every day, to counter the fascism of the right-wing. If it weren't, we would be goosestepping in the streets already.
"Perhaps that is why a few joints smoked helps them to cope with their negative world view of America." ~~ T. Paine
You're projecting, again, Mr. Paine. There's a great amount of positivity within the left. There has to be, dealing with the likes of you. ;-)
You're sure fixated with cannabis. Why is that?
"For the record, pot is not a vegetable and thus it is not good for you..." ~~ T. Paine
Words from the person who said he never eats anything green -- except Mountain Dew! LOL
For the record, nobody said cannabis is a vegetable. It is, however, a plant that grows within our natural world. It has been used by cultures around the globe for several thousands of years. It's harmless. So much so, there's not one recorded incident of anyone succumbing to death due to its direct use.
Can you say that about your drug of choice, Mr. Paine? (I didn't think so.)
No Need to link to you lies Toilet Paper, I have done that before.
As far as being ignorant, you have proven you are Toilet Paper many times. Like the questions you could not answer about the Middle East, or the fact that you call legal citizens, murderers. Yet we are supposed to agree with you and your religious superstitions or else we are nothing but pot smocking lazy bastards.
Your lies are obvious Toilet Paper and so is the ignorance you use to come to your false opinions. You know nothing about facts and thanks for proving that also Toilet Paper.
Why are you so afraid to answer questions Toilet Paper?
Toilet Paper said,
" It was the law (and thus legal) in Nazi Germany to turn in any Jew so that they could be exterminated. It wasn't moral or right, but it was legal... just like the killing of unborn innocent life is legal but immoral here today."
Another example of your ignorance, then you compare America to Nazi Germany.
You have no clue at all, but you are at least willing to show your hate and ignorance to all, or did you not realise4 that's what you are doing?
So JG, after all the drama about Paine not condemning Chuck enough for being insulting you seem fine that Paul insults Paine in every post. For the record he warned Chuck twice, not forcefully enough but he at least tried, you on the other hand, nothing.
James, I obviously do not administer this blog -- Tom Degan does. If Tom finds Paul's, or anybody else's, commentary over the top, it's up to him to step in -- not me.
Besides, it's very apparent that Mr. Paine is very capable of slinging mud and throwing bombs. He's certainly not very "gentlemanly". LOL
As the saying goes, "Not my monkey; not my circus".
Tom doesn't have to post any of my comments.
But I won't be quiet when Toilet Paper claims America is just another Nazi Germany and abortionists are murderers.
Toilet Paper refused to answer direct questions I asked about the Middle East after he wrote a whole post about Israel making ridiculous claims, not to mention he lied to me multiple times.
Toilet Paper refuses to acknowledge American law in favor of his religious dogma. Toilet Paper's God did not write the Constitution of laws we live by and Toilet Paper does not have the right to ignore American law because his God says otherwise.
Since abortion is legal Toilet Paper has no right to call those who seek that medical procedure, murderers.
Toilet Paper claims Thomas Jefferson as his mortal hero. A guy who supported slavery til the day he died and one of the few who could have made it illegal in the Constitution, but instead chose to make a nation of slavery - and this is Toilet Paper's idea of a morally superior person? BS!!
"James, I obviously do not administer this blog -- Tom Degan does. If Tom finds Paul's, or anybody else's, commentary over the top, it's up to him to step in -- not me." ~ JG
I see. But it is incumbent upon me to call out anyone on Tom's blog (Chuck especially) if they say anything mean to you? Double standards there, much?
Woodenman, I appreciate your pointing out the facts to JG, not that it will make a bit of difference. I even apologized for not curtailing over the top nasty comments on my blog directed towards him and Dave and got nothing but sneers, required caveats, and more insults for my efforts.
One wonders why JG would even deem to bless us with his presence in the country he despises so much. He and America would both be far better off had he run to Canada and stayed during the Vietnam war. That said, I hear it is a wonderful place to retire for the "hate-America" crowd. They have "free" health care there, after all.
Oh, and you should consider taking your ignorant and obnoxious fact-devoid friend Saul with you, JG.
I guess it says something about my lack of character that I even try to get down into the mud and argue with the likes of you, JG. Like I have said in the past, I don't know what version of America you think you are defending with being "Jefferson's Guardian" but based on the worldview you hold and the lies you tell, I still think "William Jefferson Clinton's Guardian" would be a more accurate moniker.
As for Paul, you are so angry that you need to actually probably smoke some. Love and tolerance... right? What a fact-deprived ignorant windbag. Just cleaning up more of your shit, like toilet paper should. :)
I really need to stick to discussing issues with adults and learn to ignore the likes of you both.
I just saw Paul's last idiotic comment.
You are lying again. I never called America Nazi-Germany. I was pointing out the stupidity of your justification for abortion simply because it was "legal". Killing Jews was "legal" in Nazi Germany. It did not make it right. Slavery was once "legal" in this country too, but that hardly made it right or moral either. Do you see the difference?
Next, dispelling your BS is not telling you lies. On the contrary, it correcting your lies. I think a job at CNN may be waiting for you too.
Further, nowhere did I claim that I want to live in a theocracy. That said, when a law like abortion is deemed legal in this country, I will fight by all LEGAL means available to overturn that law because it is the right thing to do. It is akin to supporting civil rights for people of color when such did not legally exist. Does this make sense, sir?
Our very founding document as a nation insisted that we Americans"are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I guess in your utopian progressive ideal country, the right to life should not be an absolute, especially if you are an innocent unborn child. Evidently your god is worshiped at the altar of "choice".
Last, Jefferson was a great man in so many ways. He was not perfect, as none of us are. That said, even he realized his own hypocrisy as he "feared God's justice" for the sin of slavery. Further, you need to chastise "Jefferson's Guardian" too now since that is his supposed "mortal hero" too.
Just curious, assuming you have any knowledge of American history, are there any of the founding fathers of America that you do admire, Paul? Or do you hate everything this country is and stands for today? Like I said -- just curious.
I guess I am the odd man out as I disagree with Paul,JG, and Tom. As a Liberal I feel being non partisan and supporting fairness and equality is important and even essential.
JG, you have a voice even though you do not run this blog and you could speak out if you chose to but elected to take the easy way out. Considering how you have presented yourself here over the last decade I really expected more from you.
From what I read Tom has deleted Chuck's comments in the past for violating his posted guidelines but it seems anything goes and nothing matters when it comes to Liberals being insulting and childish.
Better be careful, Paul, or Mr. Paine may complain that we're "tag-teaming" him. ;-)
For the record, I have never deleted Chuck. He claimed some of his posts never were published, but if that's the case it wasn't intentional.
"JG, you have a voice even though you do not run this blog and you could speak out if you chose to but elected to take the easy way out. ~~ woodenman1954
James, it's a new era and a new time. As I said earlier on this post, we never had a racist demagogue residing in the White House before, either.
There no longer are any issues we can debate in a dignified and civil manner. As I've told Mr. Paine on many occasions, we'll never find common ground because we see the world from totally divergent perspectives.
The corporate fascists -- or borrowing Dave's term, the "con-servatives" -- are at the helm now, firmly in control, and they're stealing from you, from me, from everyone that's not in the top 1%.
They're privatizing everything in sight, and they're not finished yet. The commons are disappearing faster than ever, and they're looting America's treasure. Unless everybody stands up against this tyranny, now -- not later -- there will not be anything left to stand up for.
"Considering how you have presented yourself here over the last decade I really expected more from you." ~~ Woodenman1954
James, possibly your expectations are greater than what I can, or am willing to, deliver. We're in uncharted territory now, with a certified moron leading the clown show. What's even more disheartening is that people like Mr. Paine accept him -- even praise him -- yet don't realize the dangerous road they're helping to lead us down.
Anybody who accepts anything by or from this imbecile, is to be rejected at every turn and in every instance.
James, I may be a disappointment to you, and that's fine, but I can't -- and will not -- be a willing participant in the obliteration of our democratic ways and processes just so I don't come across as harsh or confrontational in my commentary.
As far as Mr. Paine, I get the impression that you think he's been a perfect angel. He's been insulting me at every opportunity, which is fine because I'm certainly capable of holding my own.
If Mr. Paine can't stand the heat, he should stay out of the kitchen.
James, wishing peace to you and yours...
"Better be careful, Paul, or Mr. Paine may complain that we're 'tag-teaming' him." ~ JG
Lol! Better go find another ten militant leftists to help you two out so that the sides are more even. :)
Also, it is interesting to note that just because there is a "racist demagogue residing in the White House", whom I did not support nor for whom I voted, that justifies your being an ass to me and everyone with a conservative leaning.
As I said, I have condemned Trump on many occasions, even on his racism, but when I can be objective and also praise when he has done good things, evidently that is beyond the pale for you, J.G. Evidently it is all or nothing for you. Either we agree with everything J.G. thinks or we are part of the problem and thus subject to his wrath. That sounds like the true underpinnings of democracy to me, J.G. This is truly indicative of the "tolerance" of the militant left antifa-fascists.
Thanks be to God that our founders had the foresight to create this nation as a republic and not as a pure democracy. With the ignorance and continuing indoctrination of leftist education of our children in this nation, our imminent demise as a nation would only be hastened more than it already is.
James, if ever there is a time you are passing through Salt Lake, shoot me an email. I'd be proud to by you a beer or two, sir!
Woodman1954 said,
"I guess I am the odd man out as I disagree with Paul,JG, and Tom. As a Liberal I feel being non partisan and supporting fairness and equality is important and even essential."
Implying that I am partisan, unfair, and feel myself superior to others.
That's quite a mouthful. Would you like to use my own words to prove I am such a narrow minded person you just claimed I am. Sounds like Toilet Paper type garbage speak to me.
As I said before Toilet Paper, you have lied to me, you had no courage to answer my questions I asked you about the issues you wrote about and you confuse facts with opinions, which is on purpose as I read what you write. My opinion of you has nothing to do with your love for Trump, but I understand that's an easy out for you, even if it is a lie.
"...it is interesting to note that just because there is a 'racist demagogue residing in the White House', whom I did not support nor for whom I voted, that justifies your being an ass to me and everyone with a conservative leaning." ~~ Mr. Paine
I've taken the liberty to provide bold font to show your words are all in the past tense, Mr. Paine, because you certainly have shown you support him now.
Further, you mistaken disagreement with your verbose opinions, as well as the "alternate facts" provided by others, as "being an ass". Sounds more like you don't want to be challenged -- especially on your home turf. Tsk, tsk, Mr. Paine.
And conservative leaning?!?! Are you serious? LOL
"...I have condemned Trump on many occasions, even on his racism, but when I can be objective and also praise when he has done good things, evidently that is beyond the pale for you, J.G. Evidently it is all or nothing for you." ~~ T. Paine
Mr. Paine, Mr. Paine, Mr. Paine...don't you see? Even a mass murderer shows signs of courtesy and gentlemanly behavior once in a while. So, which do we overlook?
"Either we agree with everything J.G. thinks or we are part of the problem and thus subject to his wrath." ~~ T. Paine
No, you're intentionally turning this around. It should read, "Either we disagree with everything Trump thinks or we are part of the problem." That's what I actually said.
Let me put it another way: If you insist upon coddling and finding each stray silver lining within a xenophobic racist sex-offending war-mongering demagogue, then you're also supporting his xenophobic racist sex-offending war-mongering demagoguery, also. Capeesh?
"With the ignorance and continuing indoctrination of leftist education of our children in this nation..." ~~ T. Paine
Surely you jest! LOL Mr. Paine, as I've accused you on more than one occasion, your mindset still dwells in another era and another time -- many many decades ago. Please, don't tell me you're going to tag on the "liberal media" in your next diatribe -- I don't think I can take any more of this uncontrollable laughter!! LOLOL
Yeah, sure, Mr. Paine...conservative leaning! LOL
"...our imminent demise as a nation would only be hastened more than it already is." ~~ T. Paine
So you're saying "liberalism", or what's left of it, is causing the demise of this nation? So it has nothing to do with massive and continuing income inequality?...or ever-expanding empire?...or a foreign policy built around permanent war?...or the ever burgeoning corporate state?...or a grand reprisal of racism by the alt-right movement within the Republican Party?
Is that correct, Mr. Paine?
Yes, I stand by what I said earlier -- if you support this administration in any way, you're definitely part of the problem. A big part of it.
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