Wednesday, August 20, 2014

His Tragic Valentine

Alice Lee and Theodore Roosevelt

February 14, 1884 was the darkest day of his very crowded life.

On his twenty-second birthday, October 27, 1880, Theodore Roosevelt married nineteen-year-old Alice Hathaway Lee. He had been relentlessly courting her for a year and a half. "See that girl over there?", he once asked a friend, "I am going to marry her. She won't have me, but I am going to have her!"

The marriage was a successful one and both Alice and "Thee" (as he was known to his friends and family) were desperately in love with one another. By the late winter of 1884, the couple were expecting their first child.

On February 12, 1884, while Theodore, in his capacity as Assemblyman, was attending a session of the New York State Legislature in Albany, he received a telegram that Alice had given birth to a baby girl. A few hours later, he received a second, more ominous wire telling him to return to New York City at once.

When he arrived at his home at 7 West 57th Street, he was met at the front door by his younger brother, Elliot.

"There is a curse upon this house. Mother is dying and your wife is dying, too."

His mother, Martha Bulloch Roosevelt, age forty-eight, died in the early morning hours of the fourteenth. Alice died late that afternoon while her husband held her in his arms. It was the fourth anniversary of their engagement. It was Valentines Day.

A few months later, an inconsolable Theodore Roosevelt memorialized his beloved Alice:

"She was beautiful in face and form, and lovelier still in spirit; as a flower she grew, and as a fair young flower she died. Her life had always been in the sunshine; there had never come to her a single great sorrow; and none who ever knew her did not love and revere her for her bright, sunny temper and her saintly unselfishness. Fair, pure and joyous as a maiden; loving, tender. and happy as a young wife; when she had just become a mother, when her life seemed to be but just begun, and when the years seemed so bright before her - then, by a strange and terrible fate, death came to her. And when my heart's dearest died, the light went from my life forever."

He virtually never spoke Alice's name for the rest of his life. He would never even mention her to the daughter who was named for her. Over thirty years later when President Woodrow Wilson remarried two years after the death of his first wife, Roosevelt was harshly critical of Wilson for doing so. It apparently evaded his memory that he had done the same thing when he married Edith Carrow in 1886; so completely had he wiped Alice Hathaway Lee Roosevelt from his memory.


Poor old Teddy thought his life was over on St. Valentine's Day 1884. He had no idea that the mountaintop was yet to come. 

When death finally came to him on January 6, 1919, he was young by today's standards; less than three months past his sixtieth birthday. And yet Theodore Roosevelt would pack ten lifetimes into those sixty years.
`
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY

TR in 1912
SUGGESTED READING:

Edmund Morris' MASSIVE three-volume biography of Theodore Roosevelt was over thirty years in the making. I'm smack-dab in the middle of it at this writing. As you probably know (or have guessed) by now, Franklin Roosevelt is my favorite president. But if you gave me a choice as to which man I would prefer to spend the evening with sitting before an open fire and talking to, Teddy's my choice. FDR preferred small talk and gossip. TR talked about things that mattered - and everything else. He is - in my opinion - the most interesting person in American history - and the most brilliant.  

SUGGESTED LISTENING

Here is the voice of Theodore Roosevelt from the long ago campaign of 1912:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5XlY4nKJI

Can you imagine a Republican talking this way today? I can't.

Dear Abbey
SUGGESTED VIEWING:

My friend, Abbey Arletto, has started a blog that showcases photography from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. If she hasn't exactly strapped us into time machine, she has done the next best thing. Here's a link:

Once Upon a Town

It's like communicating with the dead. 

73 Comments:

At 7:34 PM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

Teddy Roosevelt, another Republican that today's conservatives NEVER bring up. Must be all that conservation and taking care of wilderness areas crap. He also didn't take any crap from anyone. We could use another one like him.

 
At 8:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right now in the White House, we sure could! He lead from the front, he lived the life of the rugged individualist. He believed in and lived the life of work for the sake of work it's self. He didn't let his physical limitations stop him from excelling in what he wanted out of life. He didn't require affirmative action programs to level the playing field. He took full responsibility for his failures and successes. He was aware of the events in the world going on around him. He wasn't surprised by world events, he drove the events and the influence of America through out the world.

I agree with you Mozart, we could really use Teddy the "Rough Rider" Roosevelt as our president today.

 
At 10:35 PM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

Obama leads "up front" that's why you call him "dictator", and why Boehner is threatening to sue him. Obama has taken responsibility for his errors.

And TR didn't need affirmative action to level the playing field BECAUSE HE WAS WHITE! Are you REALLY that stupid? Besides, Obama didn't need affirmative action to become President. He got elected fair and square unlike Bush, who BTW, claimed he made NO MISTAKES as president.

And Teddy Rossevelt would be WAAAYYY too liberal for today's GOP. (mostly that evil conservation thing) He'd be a Democrat now.(So would Lincoln) Hell, REAGAN would be too liberal for you, given he wanted full amnesty for ALL "illegals" and total nuclear disarmament (uncluding the USA)

Nice try though.

 
At 9:35 AM, Blogger Harley A. said...

I love how Mozart makes these wide, unfounded, sweeping generalizations about "today's conservatives"...

First of all, Mozart, today's GOP is not classically conservative. They are, like the Democrats, bought and paid for, for the most part.

I'd vote for TR in a heartbeat. He was fair-minded, willing to compromise, but held high standards for the citizens. That's why he'd be hated by both parties today. Speaking the way he did, he wouldn't be elected for City Council in today's America. He'd scare our populace to death - it would sound too much like maybe they were responsible for themselves to some degree... and to each other. More likely, he'd be sidelined at some point for punching a member of our idiot-media in the face. No, a man of his ilk today would not fare well in politics - he'd need some other outlet for his leadership style.

 
At 11:18 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Harley, while we can understand your point that "today's GOP is not classically conservative", the exclusive party of the rich always falls over one another to show who's more "conservative". There is no liberal equivalence in the Democratic Party. Neither party is liberal, yet the "conservatives" of the far Right viciously, and falsely, scapegoat liberals for every resentment they foment.

THAT is the primary difference between the parties.

And yes, both parties largely serve the same masters.

 
At 12:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obama is Teddy only in your dreams Mozart.
Stupid no, sick of your stupid crass generalizations, yes. Get a life, Teddy was sickly and in today USA where almost 40% of Americans depend on the govt for their daily bread, he would qualify today.
"The 109,631,000 living in households taking federal welfare benefits as of the end of 2012, according to the Census Bureau, equaled 35.4 percent of all 309,467,000 people living in the United States at that time. When those receiving benefits from non-means-tested federal programs — such as Social Security, Medicare, unemployment and veterans benefits — were added to those taking welfare benefits, it turned out that 153,323,000 people were getting federal benefits of some type at the end of 2012.

Subtract the 3,297,000 who were receiving veterans' benefits from the total, and that leaves 150,026,000 people receiving non-veterans' benefits."

You really wouldnt want Teddy in the White House.

 
At 12:27 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Speaking of stupid crass generalizations, “almost 40% of Americans depend on the govt for their daily bread” is as crass as you can get. This is what a copy and paste from Pat Robertson’s “news” looks like. Get. A. Life.

The Troll not only fails to support his claim by citing a source, he includes people who rightfully collect benefits THEY PAID FOR!

How stupid and crass can one get?

 
At 5:37 PM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

One more case of Anonymous letting Fox news do his thinking for him. And my "generalizations" are not unfounded as one can see the proof of them every day.

Todays conservatives love the IDEA of being the "Party of Lincon" but if slavery exists today (it nearly does) can you imagine the backlash from the right is someone tried to end it? It would be considered an "attack on capitalism". Jeez, look at te WHINING and crying over paying people a living wage for their work? Todays conservatives CLAIM to own Jesus but did you see how they reacted to frightened starving CHILDREN coming here for help?

And look at their Messiah, Ronny Reagan. Like Jesus, they love the IMAGE but don't have much in common with the real person.

 
At 8:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

More ad hominems from who else but Dave. Earned them, really?
Yada yada yada.


Mozart, you have zero creditability when ever you talk about Jesus and children, being such a strong supporter of the murder of humans while still in their mothers womb.

Hard to believe that for a brief moment when I agreed with you Mozart that "we could use another" TR we might be able to have an adult like conversation. Then you realized you were wishing Obama wasn't the President and had to back track real quick.

Silly me.

 
At 9:07 PM, Anonymous Smokey Lagumski said...

Washington’s response to the menace of school bake sales illustrates progressivism’s ratchet: The federal government subsidizes school lunches, so it must control the lunches’ contents, which validates regulation of what it calls “competitive foods,” such as vending machine snacks. Hence the need to close the bake sale loophole, through which sugary cupcakes might sneak: Foods sold at fundraising bake sales must, with some exceptions, conform to federal standards.

A cupcake-policing government will find unending excuses for flexing its muscles as it minutely monitors our behavior in order to improve it. What Fascists!

Five of the nation’s richest 10 counties, ranked by median household income, are Washington suburbs, parasitic off the federal government. The people who write the regulations of school lunches must live somewhere.


What would Teddy Roosevelt say about school bake sales being outlawed by the progressives? Teddy is rolling over in his grave at what assholes the progressives have become.

Remember this November when you vote. It is time to send the Liberal Fascists back under that rock from whence they came!

 
At 9:55 PM, Anonymous Harry said...

There are nine Senate seats described as “toss-ups” by Real Clear Politics, and Obamacare could move the needle in some of those races. The ACA is still a political stink bomb, with Kaiser Family Foundation polling showing only 37 percent of the country views the law favorably – one of its lowest ratings since it passed in 2010. Some 53 percent of Americans have an unfavorable opinion of the ACA - up a shocking 8 points since June.

Mozart, Dave Alinsky, are the low ratings Bushes Fault?

 
At 11:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Harry,

I'll give you Mozart's answer now, (he is so very predictable).

Yeah, but what your not saying is most of the people who say they dont like Obama care say their reason is "IT DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH".

Then DD will pipe in with claims that Bush Lied and 4000 people died, and that you are really Chuckie(?), followed by chicken sounds, (inferring God knows what), and in his defense of Mozart, you are just a tool of the Koch Brothers, BIG Corporations, Rush Limbaugh, RCPP something or other, a hate filled fascist, racist, and a inbred member of the Tea Party from somewhere south of the Mason Dixon Line.

Did I miss anything?

Ah yes, that you are an authoritarian.
Sorry, that almost got by me.

 
At 12:51 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Aww, Cute.

"Smokey Harry Chuckie" is having a little resentment party. All in his head, of course. LOL!

Does anyone wonder why Chuckie won't mention THIS poll from the same source?

Another Kaiser Family Foundation report, published last month, got markedly different results...

Even as many people expressed negative opinions about the Affordable Care Act, the poll also found that 60 percent of Americans don't favor repealing it (the GOP's standard take when it comes to the law). Instead, people said they want Congress to improve the law. These views also fell along party lines.


Looks like our Troll is in the minority again. MOST AMERICANS DON"T AGREE WITH HIM. I bet that makes him angry, and want to hate liberals even more.

Right, Chuckie?

His is the hate that fuels fascism.

 
At 8:45 AM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

Anonymous, no one SUPPORTS abortion, but given that it happens whethere it's legal or not, better that it happen in a clean safe environment than in a trailer park overseen by "Dr. Coathanger". Besides, as a conservative you don't care what happens to the kid once it takes it's first breath, do you? You are against food stamps, school lunch programs, healthcare, etc.
Besides it's hard to "murder" a blob of cells.

As for my "predictable" responses, they are so because they are the truth, and in the real world, the truth never changes. Only in your world of Fox news is the truth "negotiable".

Most people wanted a single payer healthcare plan. They settled for the ACA because they knew that's all that Obama could get right now. Maybe if Obama had come out against single payer, the GOP would have insisted that's what we get.

Anonymous, you look pretty stupid attacking MY credibility when you didn't know that the Senate was part of congress and can't even name your own congressmen.

 
At 9:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"no one SUPPORTS abortion"
Mozart
8/22/2014
A comment for the ages, for sure.

 
At 10:57 AM, Blogger Harley A. said...

"Besides it's hard to "murder" a blob of cells."

Explain to me at what point you became something more than a blob of cells. If you listen to a philosophical naturalist, he'd tell you that you never have become more than that.

 
At 2:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dave's envy fuels his socialism.

 
At 2:51 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Dave's envy fuels his socialism.

Aw, that's the cutest thing Chuckie ever said.

His cult teaches him liberals hate the rich, yet envy them. Yeah, go figure...

Neither is reality-based of course. Many liberals are already rich. Many others are happy in their life's work and circumstances.

But Chuckie can't mentally process anything that doesn't demonize and scapegoat liberals. It's a cult thing.

If Chuckie could be de-programmed, he would begin by trying to understand a concept alien to his cult.

Let's try this one:

"Dave's empathy fuels his socialism".

We can shine the light, but that doesn't mean Chuckie will open his eyes.

 
At 8:51 PM, Anonymous Khalid Abu said...

Palestinian human rights activists in Gaza say at least two women were among those #Hamas executed by firing squad on Friday.

 
At 12:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

DNC Chief Wasserman Schultz:" Illegal Immigrants Are “Part Of The Backbone Of Our Economy”…

More envy fueled liberal socialism.

 
At 12:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...



http://safeshare.tv/w/EDBZOvVlia

 
At 7:46 AM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

A comment for the ages like THIS one?

"Ahh Mozart, Mitch McConnell is in the Senate, not the Congress." --- Anonymous.

I stand by what I said 100%. DO YOU?

 
At 9:08 AM, Blogger Tom Degan said...

I watched that Congress/Senate debate in silent amusement. What the right wing lacks in brains they more than make up in chutzpa.

Why do you thing they call it "both houses on congress", silly?

 
At 9:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know Tom,
"Why do you "thing" they call it "both houses "on" congress", silly?

 
At 9:44 AM, Blogger Tom Degan said...

Fine. I type too fast. It's one thing to make an innocent typo - but to not know the basic structure of one's own government is inexcusable.

Seriously.

 
At 9:57 AM, Anonymous James Hanson said...

Chuckie, I watched the video http://safeshare.tv/w/EDBZOvVlia

I just wanted to say that the reason why Liberal run governments fail, like Greece, is because they aren't given enough money to spend to fix the problems. If they were only given enough money, we progressives could reach our utopian dreams of social and economic harmony amongst the people where there would be univeral love and no terrorists.

 
At 9:59 AM, Anonymous James Hanson said...

Chuckie, I watched the video http://safeshare.tvEDBZOvVlia

I just wanted to say that the reason why Liberal run governments fail, like Greece, is because they aren't given enough money to spend to fix the problems. If they were only given enough money, we progressives could reach our utopian dreams of social and economic harmony amongst the people where there would be univeral love and no terrorists.

 
At 10:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And the more the plans FAIL, the more the planners PLAN.

 
At 11:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://online.wsj.com/articles/holman-jenkins-al-gore-v-al-jazeera-v-the-truth-1408747707

It's clearer than ever that Current TV's carriage rights, the main assets that it sold to Al Jazeera for $500 million, were a gift of the cable industry and provided a windfall to Mr. Gore. He's personally believed to have cleared $70 million. And let's not forget that $70 million is oil money from Qatar, whose ruling family out of another pocket is believed to subsidize Hamas and other Islamic radical groups.

Nobody, it seems, has much appetite for exposing the degree to which short-lived Current TV had become a gratuitous bestowal of wealth on Mr. Gore by cable operators.

Mr. Gore likes to say "our democracy has been hacked by big money," but he has done some hacking himself in his many rent-seeking activities. His Current TV payday, partly at the expense of the Qataris, partly at the expense of U.S. cable subscribers and shareholders, must be especially piquant to Americans exhausted by Mr. Gore's incessant moralizing.

What would be nice to know, and what a full airing of the legal record might show, and is at what point Current stopped being a sincere experiment in liberal news and entertainment. At what point did it morph into a scheme to shake down TV distributors and flip the carriage rights for what BusinessWeek estimates was $450 million in profit to Mr. Gore and partners.

 
At 11:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Top Comments of above article about what a Fraud, Con man, and Liberal hypocrite Al Gore has become (don't forget that he entered Politics to help the poor people achieve economic equality):


Just think we were just a handful of pregnant chads from having this guy as president.



It just shows the downward slide of the intelligence level of the voters in this country that this idiot got as close as he did to the Presidency...and even more proof of this is the current (and, thankfully, STILL vacationing) CLUELESS occupant.



Simple....he is a terrorist supporting, global warming hoax, 20k sqft living, limo riding, private jet flying, get rich, giant carbon footprint hoax! All at the taxpayer's expense!


It is hard to be sympathetic about Al Gore's plight -- all that he was interested in with Current was making money. His net worth has still grown from $1.7 million when was Vice President to $200 million today. His five star lifestyle--from the 10,000 square foot mansion in Nashville occupied only by his dog, to the $10 million home in Montecito, CA he bought in 2010, to the $10 million penthouse in San Francisco's ultra deluxe St. Regis--is disgusting. I doubt that Al Gore would've gotten anywhere near that rich or become part of deals and have the Apple board seat, had he not been VP. Both he and Clinton have disrespected high public office by making money off them once they're no longer Pres and Vice Pres., and embracing ultra luxury lifestyles that basically are a slap in the face of the common man.
Does anyone every take notice of whose interest is being served by these people?


Al Gore, like so many Liberal poltroons of his ilk is nothing more or less than a rent-seeking blood sucker. He fits in perfectly with the Clinton's and with this current crop of Democratic neo-Marxist four legs good, two legs better disingenuous lying swine the Democratic party breeds in some sort of petri dish in New York, Chicago or Hollywood.


Al Gore? Nobel Prize recipient Al Gore, who also invented the internet and is saving the earth from spontaneous combustion while hawking carbon dioxide forgiveness dispensations, that Al Gore? The guy whose personal carbon footprint is the size of Delaware? Mr. Pompous, the puffy stud who dumped his wife and has a penchant for masseuses, he has had some shady business dealings?? It can't be so. No sir.


Without the leadership of past Noble Peace Prize winners Carter, Gore, and Obama we would not have peace in our time like we do today. At the very least without Al Gore we wouldn't be able to comment on these articles on the internet.

Everyone should care how politicians lie and pretend to be for the little guy when they are the biggest hypocritical people on earth . Do you know how Soros got started . Disgusting look it up.


I suspect Al Jazeera will go the way of Current TV. Let both parties be buried and never be heard from again.

 
At 12:05 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

I love how Al Gore still gets a rise out of the far right. Why couldn't Al make his own fortune like their hero Bush? Their "Decider" raked it in from his baseball team he bought on borrowed money, thanks to PUBLIC tax payer-funded stadium. Classic welfare for the rich.

Just think we were just a handful of pregnant chads from having this guy as president.

That's right. MORE people voted against Bush, and democracy was suppressed.

The Right opposes democracy. They want a dictatorship. Period.

 
At 2:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dave Dubya and Al Gore like to say "our democracy has been hacked by big money"

But lying Al is raking in the cash (just like Michael Moore who won't hire union labor to save costs) and poor Dave rakes the feces thrown at the prison guards.

This is not fair as Dave is way smarter than Al. Just ask him.

 
At 2:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's one thing to make an innocent typo - but to not know the basic structure of one's own government is inexcusable.

Like did you or Mozart ever think for a second that maybe it was a typo that brought about that deal? Of course not, liberals hold conservatives to much higher standards than they hold themselves.

All liberal failures and mistakes are excusable because they care so much more and just want to do the "right thing" and therefore don't believe they should be held accountable for their policy failures. Do you?

And since you are sitting in judgement on how we should know the basic structure of ones government, maybe you can explain how come so many of our current president's actions have been overturned by our courts see as he was a professor of constitutional law? Now that's inexcusable!

 
At 5:07 PM, Anonymous Barnie Sanders said...

I just can't believe what a greedy capitalist pig Al Gore turned out to be!

Thanks Chucky (Bwaack Bwaack Buck Buck) for pointing this out to us confused progressives who have been fooled by this con man.

Is he a true progressive who cares about helping the little guy or filling his pockets like that bitch Nancy Piglosi?

And to think he was just a few pregnant chads of becoming president!

 
At 9:16 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

But lying Al is raking in the cash (just like Michael Moore who won't hire union labor to save costs) and poor Dave rakes the feces thrown at the prison guards.

Beautiful. Sounds like Chuckie hates the rich as much as he hates me. I bet he has an angry and burning ENVY for Gore and Moore too. LOL!!

And you can bet your last nickel Chuckie is furious with rage that union corrections officers are paid fair wages for risking their lives for the public good. I'm sure he'd prefer corporate owned dungeons with torture chambers.

This is how a hateful authoritarian "argues" when he's lost the debate.

Theirs is the hate that fuels fascism.

 
At 12:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


"And you can bet your last nickel Chuckie is furious with rage that union corrections officers are paid fair wages for risking their lives for the public good. I'm sure he'd prefer corporate owned dungeons with torture chambers."

Wow, sounds like somebody has gotten inside the head of Dave.
My advise would be for Dave to look into getting some CBT, he needs it.

Envy fuels Dave's liberal socialism.

 
At 3:17 AM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

"Ahh Mozart, Mitch McConnell is in the Senate, not the Congress." --- Anonymous



Another Republican todays Teabillies never mention is Eisenhower. Was it the 90% tax rate (coupled with a booming economy)or his mistrust of the "military industrial complex"?

 
At 9:00 AM, Anonymous James Hanson said...

"Was it the 90% tax rate (coupled with a booming economy)"

Mozart my sly marxist friend, you forgot to mention the effective tax rate was much lower and there was little competition abroad as the manufacturing bases in Europe and Japan had been decimated.

 
At 10:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


"Mozart my sly Marxist friend, you forgot to mention...."
Details, detail details, don't you know James Hansen it's the intent of liberal policy that counts, not it's results.

 
At 10:42 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Wow, sounds like somebody has gotten inside the head of Dave.

LOL. Classic authoritarian Right projection again. We can read Chuckie like a book, no matter what name he cowardly hides behind.

What else can we expect from a hateful troll who steals other people’s names? “James” Chuckie hates both the poor and the rich, providing the rich don’t belong to his Radical Right Bubble Cult.

the effective tax rate was much lower

Funny how this concept of reality eludes Chuckie when he howls about the “highest corporate tax rate in the world”.

More examples of the selective cult mentality, hypocrisy, and double standards by the authoritarians of the RRBC.

Speaking of Right Wing fascists, is it true four of the Ferguson SS wannabes are on suspension for their threats, (One to the Attorney General) their Klanish hate, and pointing weapons at innocent citizens exercising their constitutional rights?

“I Kill Everybody, I Don’t Care.” Mentally Deranged, Right Wing Fanatic Cop Suspended In Ferguson

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/23/i-kill-everybody-i-dont-care-mentally-deranged-right-wing-fanatic-cop-suspended-in-ferguson-video/

Another Ferguson Cop Goes Off On Social Media; Threatens To Punch The US Attorney General

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/23/another-ferguson-cop-goes-off-on-social-media-threatens-to-punch-the-us-attorney-general/

Yes, Chuckie and these racist cops are the face of fascism in the US. Do they get that tingle up their leg whenever an unarmed black kid is shot?

I bet they’d like that to happen to all liberals, or anyone else exercising their rights to speech and assembly criticizing racist police thugs.

These are the authoritarian personalities illuminated in former Nixon counsel John Dean’s book, “Conservatives without Conscience”.

Theirs is the hate that fuels fascism.

 
At 5:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yawn, classic Dave Dubya posing almost as was predicated in a post a day ago.

Dave's envy fuels his liberal socialism.

 
At 7:49 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Dave's envy fuels his liberal socialism.

As I clearly explained, for Chuckie to ignore, this is false.

It is cult brainwashing, right wing ignorance, and hate.

A lie.

Not even a complete lie at that. We don't really know who I "envy". The accusation is empty in that regard as well as empty of truth.

That's our authoritarian personality for you.

Although we may never know who I'm supposed to envy, we most certainly know who Chuckie hates, don't we?

His is the hate that fuels fascism.

Mine is the empathy that supports social programs.

That about sums up the major differences between us.




 
At 9:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"that supports social programs" with somebody else's money of course. Hence your envy of and hatred towards those with more money that you and big corporations who "rule our country" which fuels your liberal socialism.
You can say what you want about hatred but honestly Dave, no can hold a candle to the hate you have in a moment of honesty admitted holding towards anyone who is not a liberal socialist.

In the simplest terms you are a totalitarian statist. Driven by your hatred of the free enterprise system

 
At 10:18 PM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

Anonymous, why do corporations like "EXXON/Mobile need 8 BILLION of "somebody elses money" every year?

Why do you only worry about "somebody else's money" when it's POOR people getting it?

BTW, in case you were wondering, the Senate is part of congress.

 
At 10:22 PM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

James Hansen, the "effective tax rate" was lowert because to get the lowert rates, one had to do something that promoted the AMERICAN econbomy, like hiring people or expanding the business in the USA.

Today, billion dollar corporations not only pay little or no income taxes, they get the tax breaks even after outsourcing jobs and putting Americans out of work. They now get subsidies (paid by the taxpayers) and are allowed to put their money on offshor accounts or put their corporate headquarters in a forign country. Patriots all.

 
At 11:07 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Chuckie:
"that supports social programs" with somebody else's money of course. Hence your envy of and hatred towards those with more money

So to be clear on your reasoning, because someone supports food stamps, and even pays taxes for them, he hates the rich? So everyone who thinks food stamps are good for people in need MUST hate the rich?

You are not making a lick of sense here. I wonder if you could clarify that for us.

the hate you have in a moment of honesty admitted holding towards anyone who is not a liberal socialist.

Ah, so you have a specific time, or moment, I admitted this hate? Now the burden of proof is on you. We think you are confused. Or are you just calling me a Nazi again?

In the simplest terms you are a totalitarian statist. Driven by your hatred of the free enterprise system

Oh, thank you so much. I had to know what/who I was accused of hating. Even violent criminals are afforded specific charges and evidence by law.

Now, to be anywhere near honest, you would need to show an objective or common definition of “totalitarian statist”. ..Or are you just calling me a Nazi again?

So we take it as your belief, that you’d swear to God is true, I am driven by “hatred of the free enterprise system”. What free enterprise system are you talking about? We need to know your concept of what “the free enterprise system” is. Is it one of no laws, rules, or regulations? Does it now, or did it ever, exist? Until you tell us, nobody knows what you’re talking about. Do you?

Or perhaps you’d prefer to exemplify YOUR totalitarian nature and offer no definitions, no evidence, and no words or deeds on my part to justify the accusations. At this point your accusations are simply groundless and meaningless ad hominem attacks. I’m betting that will be your course. You’re probably done with dialogue. You tire quickly of your stated goal for being here. It may stress you, even.

Let’s be honest, or I should say, I’ll be honest. I not only enrage you, I probably frighten you. Your narrow and ill-informed beliefs tell you I am a monster. Monsters are feared. And you believe it is good to hate monsters. And in your far, far Right world view, liberals are monsters.

Most people of the world see that real monster totalitarians start wars, build police states, and embrace torture and indefinite detention.

Demonization of liberals has a long history now. It is sad for our country that so many Americans are angry and frightened by other Americans…for false reasons. You may as well worry about liberal wizards on flying dragons as you suffer their evil spells of health care and food stamps.

Your hateful and yes, fearful, demonizing is simply wrong, and so wrong, in every way.

So wrong, so Right. So far, far, far Right.

Mozart,

billion dollar corporations not only pay little or no income taxes, they get the tax breaks even after outsourcing jobs and putting Americans out of work.

These are the heroic “persons” of Chuckie’s world. They are his masters, his gods. The most important thing in the universe is that they profit, no matter the consequences to humans, animals and the planet. No matter how much they corrupt our government. Everything the greediest people desire is Chuckie’s desire. Count on it. Every politician bought by big money is Chuckie’s politician. Count on it.

 
At 12:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah yes, another totalitarian statist speaks up.

Defending their statism no less, while claiming that pointing it out is hateful.
How very twisted.

All driven by envy of what others have that they don't have and feel the only way to get even is to have govt take it away and act as a distributor. This time it's "billion dollar corporations" , yeah sure it is. Next time it will be rich white males, or Wall Street. Oops already did that didn't they.

sad. Cant deny what they are so they can only accuse others of being Fascist, or racist, or having a war on women, or homophobic, or what ever is this months talking point. All to draw attention away from what they say they are and what they really are.

sad.

 
At 12:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Let’s be honest, or I should say, I’ll be honest.
THAT WOULD BE REFRESHING!!

I not only enrage you, I probably frighten you. Your narrow and ill-informed beliefs tell you I am a monster. Monsters are feared. And you believe it is good to hate monsters. And in your far, far Right world view, liberals are monsters."

You WISH I was afraid of you, like, what's there to be afraid of? You are a true believer of Statism. I'll leave your self descriptions to you.
Period.

 
At 1:14 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

You WISH I was afraid of you, like, what's there to be afraid of? You are a true believer of Statism.

So Chuckie's not afraid of liberal monsters? Not even afraid of "statism", whatever that is?

Ah that's right, a "totalitarian statist" is the evil sort who don't mind paying taxes towards food stamps and other safety nets for the public good. Poor Chuckie, imagine how it must be to be furious at most of the country.

That is a LOT of hate.

This babbling nonsense reeks of fear, hate and ignorance.

It's all he's got.

His is the hate that fuels fascism.




 
At 1:23 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

All driven by envy of what others have that they don't have and feel the only way to get even is to have govt take it away and act as a distributor.

Goebbels would be proud of the way Chuckie denies a request for evidence behind accusations, repeats the Big Lie, avoids reasoned debate, and presses with the accusations and demonization. His response has been 100% totalitarian in nature, as I predicted.

Or perhaps you’d prefer to exemplify YOUR totalitarian nature and offer no definitions, no evidence, and no words or deeds on my part to justify the accusations.

We can read him like a book.

His is the hate that fuels fascism. Period.



 
At 10:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

STATISM;
"a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs."

 
At 11:19 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

"a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs."

Very good. As a proponent of gay marriage rights, ending the drug war, free assembly, expanded voting rights, etc. I am obviously NOT for government control over social affairs. Chuckie would be more that type.

Who supports constitutional regulation of commerce and who supports the anti-democracy party of corporate written legislation?

Now about that totalitarian part of the accusation?

Who supports democratic values, and who supports a one-party dictatorship by the party of the rich?

I think it's quite clear who the real totalitarian is here.

 
At 1:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Welfare state adepts and other such options make up more statist territory of the scale of statism. Totalitarians prefer a maximum or all-encompassing state.



 
At 2:29 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

I would not see DD as a "statist" per se; at least not in the sense of a controlling state. I see him more as a populist (maybe hyper-populist) who would bestow the word "citizen" more liberally, perhaps, than I would. Where he fears the unhindered influence of "big money" (I do too) far more, I would fear the influence of the "masses" (so to speak) far more. Masses meaning indiscriminate bestowing of rights to participate in governance simply by turning 18 and having a pulse. Granted, his position seems more magnanimous and feels better - certainly plays in Peoria far better... And, mine would have the appearance of bigotry (which it's not) and discrimination (which it is in the literal sense). Having conceded that, I do think there is more wisdom in mine.

Certainly, no perfection in either - there's a "right" balance somewhere.

But, we can't have real dialogue if we call him names he doesn't deserve. And, vice-versa. I don't think anyone here is advocating for totalitarianism.

 
At 4:10 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Harley,

Thanks for your moderating. However I don’t think your point will be acknowledged by both parties.

While not exactly in the ballpark, you are far closer to the ballpark than Chuckie could imagine. Conservatives have long been inundated with false conceptions of liberals. You cannot deny the demonization that occurs at all levels, from Chuckie on up to “Rush the Infallible”. It is no surprise liberals are mis-characterized and misunderstood. Powerful entrenched interests are certainly behind the propaganda, and not just Rupert Murdoch and the Kochs. There really is nothing comparable on the left. The much-demonized Unions and Soros pale in comparison to corporate cash and Right Wing media in our politics.

It is reassuring to some of us that you are concerned by the corrupting influences of big money in our elections and governance.

It is real, it is now, and it is worsening.

On the other hand, I’m not sure what you mean by “indiscriminate bestowing of rights to participate in governance simply by turning 18 and having a pulse”. Has there ever been such a thing? And how could it possibly happen here?

Actually on the contrary, we are discriminate. We don’t think a corporation is a citizen, and a “person” entitled to our individual rights. Rights and freedom are either for individuals or they are meaningless. The greater the corporate power, the less free we all become. There is sound reason behind our Constitutional regulation of commerce.

We now have the foxes running the henhouse. And we are the hens.

 
At 5:08 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

I meant simply that "We the People" should be more limited than "you turned 18, now go weigh in as to who should govern the US". "Governance" was a euphemism for the right to vote, essentially.

I think there is far too much at stake to be egalitarian in-the-extreme in the right to vote. There simply must be some minimal standards of "citizenship". I'm certainly not talking sex, race, religion, net worth, etc.. I'm talking about some indication that a person has the desire to be a citizen and contributor, and has the understanding to make informed decisions. I don't know what it would look like (or if it's even possible). But, when I look around me, I am scared to death at what I see in today's average citizen. Sounds arrogant, yes... but you know it is true...

"A people never hears censure of itself. No one will tell it that the educated minority whom it dethroned governed better or more wisely than it governs. A democracy will never, save after an awful catastrophe, return what has once been conceded to it, for to do so would be to admit an inferiority in itself, of which, except by some almost unbearable misfortune, it could never be convinced." - W. Bagehot

 
At 5:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gee Harley, I wish you had let Dave tell us why he wasn't a statist.

That would have been very interesting.

 
At 6:53 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Interesting quote from a scion of banking and business.

A corporatocracy will never cede what it has taken either. Democracy is co-opted, broken, corrupted and neutralized, all by the political and economic power of banking and business.

Your fears of democracy are unfounded. It was the only force that stood between our freedom and prosperity, and the seizure of economic and government power by the new economic royalists.

Now THEY write the laws. They own the politicians.

Game over.

 
At 9:10 PM, Anonymous Progressive Utopian Dreamer said...

A better and peaceful world is possible — a world where people and nature come before profits. That’s socialism. That’s our vision.

I love you Dave Dubya. We are kindred spirits!

Keep fighting the good fight for Democracy and Corporations who think they are people.

 
At 9:43 PM, Anonymous HarleyA said...

DD -

Yeah, it's "pick your poison" I suppose. Problem is we are getting high doses of both poisons. I don't see why you feel the government is that much different as a power structure. Gov't is power and control. Always has been - always will be. That's why money always has and always will be its bedfellow. They are inseperable. I understand your vision - I simply don't think it is achievable.

By the way, Bagehot was more complicated than a typical banker. He was in many ways a liberal, though not uncritically so. Some of his writing is interesting enough.

 
At 11:25 PM, Blogger Mozart1220 said...

"Statist" the latest catchphrase from the "government is bad unless WE are running it" crowd.

Hey Anonymous, I don't know how to break this to ya, but the Senate IS part of congress.

 
At 11:28 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 11:30 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Harley,

I don't see why you feel the government is that much different as a power structure. Gov't is power and control.

Yes, government is power and control. And in the clutches of authoritarians, private interests, and their puppets, very dangerous. This is why the public needs Constitutional rule of law and representative government.

So if you mean government power being different from corporate power, there is a fundamental difference of purpose, at least under our Constitution.

Corporations exist only for private profit.

Constitutional representative government and the rule of law exist for We the People. Our government exists to provide for the common defense and general welfare. The founders understood the need to regulate commerce. That requires government power over commerce. Today, commerce can buy entire political parties, so commerce exerts power over government.

This power imbalance has left us wars, depressions and whatever we’re in now. That really is a greater problem than, say, making it harder for people to register to vote. This power imbalance clearly presents real and ongoing threats to not only the remnants of a government of, by, and for the people, but threats to the economic and physical well being of our people.

I hold these truths to be self evident.

 
At 11:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dave,

I belong to none of the things you continue to claim I do. I am not employed by any big money interest as you seem to believe I am.

I do not believe that govt is the answer to all our ills. I believe as I have told you several times before, good intentions aside, I see govt as causing more problems than it solves. If that were not so, then all the problems their policy's set out to corrected, would be gone. I fear govt that can not shrink it's self and demands more from it's citizens that it is supposed to serve. With the growth of govt we the people become the servants of the govt.
You support a growing government.
That is not the way the USA was designed to work.

The growth of the federal govt and it's debt load regardless, which president created it, can not be stopped by increasing taxes. It can only be stopped by cutting spending and cutting taxes. Currently the military budget has been cut, yet none of the items that the DNC supports to get it's votes have been cut.
This bothers me no end.
I fear a growing Federal Govt at the expense of a shrinking State government. For all the reasons the founders designed our govt the way that they did. A Union of States.

I fear the supporters of an expanding federal govt who use claims of racism and guilt and envy to drive their demands for more government intervention in it's citizen's personal lives.

I fear a country where the gap between those working and those receiving their livelihood from the govt is shrinking. I fear a group of people who claim it is in my best interest to vote for more growth of government.

I fear the statist who wants govt to be the end all. I fear those who claim big corporations are the root of all evil, when it is the State that has the power to tax, to spend, to declare war.
I fear crony capitalism, which is what we have now. I fear my vote as a citizen is being diluted on purpose by our Govt allowing those who do not have the right to vote to do so. I fear a govt that considers adding 12 million "undocumented workers" to our social services system, while we have 92 American citizens not working.

I fear a Govt that spends my tax dollars for "reproductive rights", just another word for the legalized and financed murder of babies while in their mothers womb, that deems pregnancy to be a sickness.

I fear a govt that spends billions of dollars on education year after year with out any improvement in the results of the education.

I fear a govt where a none elected person can force public schools to change their lunch menus acting as though they had a degree in nutrition.

I fear a nation that declares me to be a racist, unfeeling greedy man, unworthy of having a view, because I disagree with the direction the minority of our people are taking we, the majority.

I fear a govt that calls the armed forces that just beheaded one it it's citizens as the JV Team and lives in a constant state of surprise by the turn of events.

 
At 12:37 AM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Chuckie,

Thank you for the rather eloquent, by previous standards, response.

Yes, I thought I sensed fear, didn't I? Remember, "Dave's empathy, not envy, fuels his socialism".

That’s OK. We all have fears. We’re human.

I stated my fears as well:

The founders understood the need to regulate commerce. That requires government power over commerce. Today, commerce can buy entire political parties, so commerce exerts power over government.

This power imbalance has left us wars, depressions and whatever we’re in now. That really is a greater problem than, say, making it harder for people to register to vote. This power imbalance clearly presents real and ongoing threats to not only the remnants of a government of, by, and for the people, but threats to the economic and physical well being of our people.

I hold these truths to be self evident.


If we would calmly and rationally discuss our fears, perhaps we would better understand their basis, their nature, and perhaps who has the most to gain from fueling these fears. And yes, fear-mongering can go both ways.

If we’d agree to post civilly and under one identity, I’d be happy to discuss these fears of ours. I’d even welcome Harley to moderate. You may not believe it, but I wouldn't make this offer to someone I hate. Although I can react strongly and even sarcastically, to your accusations, and I can react angrily to your hateful and dishonest remarks, I can’t hate you for your fears.

 
At 9:30 AM, Blogger Harley A. said...

"So if you mean government power being different from corporate power, there is a fundamental difference of purpose, at least under our Constitution."

I always pegged you as more of a realist vs. and ideologue. Of course, if our Constitution were followed, we'd be in decent shape. That's Anon's premise as well. As it stands, it is in the way and the focus is on how to circumvent it and/or obscure it. Much of the populace (to my comments about voting rights) haven't the foggiest idea what it says or means.

Constitutions are visions of a group of men, a generation. Human government, no matter the model, the constitution, etc.. always has at is gravitational center POWER and CONTROL. And money is the oil that lubricates the machine. It is axiomatic almost. You seem to forget that we started off on the right footing, yet we've ended up where we are. "We the People" allowed this to happen because, too often, when "We the People" leave home for DC we forget what we are there for and are lured away by money, power, and control. In essence "We the People" are no more moral or statesman-like than the proverbial tyrant.

Don't get me wrong, I feel our system as designed was about as good as can be. But what I've described above (the human condition), to me, is the underlying fatal flaw. Certainly not a progressive mindset - that's why I don't call myself a progressive - the fundamental premise is untrue.

There is something more transcendent and true in which to place one's hope. Though, we don't give up the fight for a righteous government, either.

 
At 12:13 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Harley,
We agree that the serious flaws to a democratic representative republic come down to two major factors. The corrupting influence of money and power along with voter ignorance. (I would add apathy).

If I could make one requirement for public, and private, education, it would be every student take a course in civics. It's tragic that legal immigrants are better educated in civics than 99% of Americans. They need to know this to be granted citizenship. The people need to know this to exercise their rights and citizenship.

The other key to restoring our Constitutional foundation is to end the corporate personhood/citizenship. It is an artificial fabrication.

These are two vital steps that I fear will not be taken. Which goes back to the powers that be and their influence on public education and policy.

Is it really old-fashioned and outdated to consider only human beings having full rights of citizenship? I guess so. I would think, and hope, this is an overlap of perspective by both conservative and liberal views.

Just as liberalism has been co-opted by the Democratic Party, conservatism has been co-opted by the Republican Party. Neither are liberal or conservative as much as they are corporatist.

Just as we are not conserving the better aspects of society and government, we see changes and legislation that favor only the economic elites.

Reasonable conservatives and reasonable liberals understand this. Liberals want to conserve our liberal democracy and promote equality under the law, just as conservatives want changes towards a stronger economy with better jobs and more opportunities. In these, our goals are the same. The way to accomplish them involves dialogue, mutual respect and compromise.

Authoritarians, ideologues, the economic elites and their political lackeys have no use for dialogue, mutual respect and compromise.

Yeah, I've said it's only a dream. The divide and conquer methods by the powerful have always been successful.

The game is over. They won. All we can do is stand for our rights and call it what it is. And it is NOT a representative democratic republic anymore.

I can't think of a more accurate term than corporatocracy.

 
At 1:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Harley, Dave

The serious flaws to a democratic representative republic DO NOT come down to two major factors. Voters are NOT ignorant or apathetic.

The serious flaw to democratic representation is when the people learn they can, by their vote, put policies into place that cost them nothing. I think this has been called, "voting in your best interest".

 
At 2:01 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Voters are NOT ignorant or apathetic.

Maybe misinformed and resigned to the futility of voting may be better descriptions.

If you need proof the public is susceptible to misinformation and propaganda by the powerful, remember 70% of Americans believed Saddam was involved with 9-11 before the invasion.


Let me show you how well the brainwashing worked:

Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link
Posted 9/6/2003 8:10 AM

WASHINGTON (AP) — Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, says a poll out almost two years after the terrorists' strike against this country.

Sixty-nine percent in a Washington Post poll published Saturday said they believe it is likely the Iraqi leader was personally involved in the attacks carried out by al-Qaeda. A majority of Democrats, Republicans and independents believe it's likely Saddam was involved.


What does that tell you?



 
At 2:05 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Also, just who "put policies into place that cost them nothing" for the last two decades?

Hint: They get tax breaks while writing our treaties and off-shoring jobs.

Yeah, profits are up for the elites, but pay stagnates.

Why do you suppose that is?

 
At 2:08 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

Make that the past three and half decades. It was the Reagan Revolution that left us the false promise of "trickle down", and let the foxes in the hen-house.

We are a center-left people, ruled by a right wing economic and military/police state empire.

Surrendering our government over to big money's exclusive interests will only serve the elites. How complicated is that?


 
At 2:36 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

"The serious flaw to democratic representation is when the people learn they can, by their vote, put policies into place that cost them nothing. I think this has been called, "voting in your best interest"."

Agreed. I think we're getting into semantics now. I consider that to be an ignorant (maybe ignoble is better) position to take. Ignorant of the impact it has on those you love and your progeny. Imagine the amount of wealth that the current generations have stolen from their children/grandchildren over the past 30-40 years through our debt burden... But, Tocqueville called that one a long time ago...


"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." - A. Tocqueville


But, to clarify, my position is more fundamental. It has to do with the human condition in general. The fallen condition of the human heart will lead any government astray, whether monarchal or democratic. Power doesn't corrupt. Corrupt humans use power in a corrupt way. Oh, there are pockets of goodness, no doubt. But the disease of greed and corruption infects 10 out of 10 times over the long haul.

But, we're getting outside the bounds of politics now...

 
At 2:50 PM, Blogger Dave Dubya said...

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." - A. Tocqueville

Yes, and of course the other side of the coin: "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress is bribed by private wealth to fleece the public's money."

 

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home