The Great American Shutdown
The front page of the New York Daily News on this fine autumn morning got it right, did it not?
"One faction of one party in one house of Congress in one branch of government doesn't get to shut down the entire government just to refight the the results of an election."
-President Barack Obama
Well the silly bastards and bitches did it. At the stroke of midnight on October 1, 2013, the government of the United States of America ceased to be - at least for the time being. I can't see this lasting very long, but then again, a certain political party in recent years has redefined the process of "governing" to mean doing away with government. As Molly Ivins once pointed out, putting people in charge of your government who don't believe in government is generally not a very nifty idea. If you don't understand that by now you will soon enough. This is going to be interesting.
The really amazing thing is the fact that the congresspersons from the red states have no fear of voter-backlash because most of their constituents have no problem with the shutdown. In fact they're cheering their representatives on. It would appear that the overwhelming majority of these assholes will be reelected during next year's midterms. Ain't that a knee-slapper? How on earth are the Democrats expected to gain a majority anytime soon if these half-witted Tea Partiers keep getting sent back to DC every two years? I have a plan....
The secret is not-so-much in concentrating on the red states. They're a lost cause. Let's face some serious and uncomfortable facts, boys and girls: Most of the voters in those regions of this diseased nation are just too idiotic to do the right thing at the ballot box. If this country is to be saved it will only be saved by the voters in the blue and purple states. And they will be able to do that by sending every Republican that represents them in Washington packing in November of 2014.
I don't care how moderate he or she may be. Long Island's Peter King and Maine's Susan Collins may be "moderates" by today's definition of the word; they may both have an IQ above room temperature; and yes, they are one-hundred percent correct when they say (as each of them have) that shutting down the government is a really dumb thing to do. But Peter King and Susan Collins are Republicans. The only way to take the House of Reprehensibles back from the crazies who have hijacked it is to make damned sure that in the more liberal and moderate states, as many Republicans as possible - even the so-called "moderates" - are sent packing next year. That way the strength of the "party of Abraham Lincoln" will be severely diluted on a nationwide basis. In other words: think nationally, act locally. Neat idea, ay?
Yeah, I realize that that's a pipe dream on my part, but these are desperate times. Got any better ideas?
The one beautiful thing about this entire mess is that - for all the damage that's being done to the United States - it surely is an amusing spectacle to behold. I'm sure that watching Nero playing the fiddle while Rome burned all around him must have been a funny thing to witness as well. You can say anything you want about the times in which we live, but you can't say that they're boring. Anything but. In fact I cannot recall an era more entertaining - in terms of pure ideological insanity - than this one. The ancient Chinese used to say, "May you live in interesting times". It was a blessing and a curse.
And to think that this all came about simply because the tea-partying hardliners refuse to extend affordable health care to the poor and working classes. They should be renamed the "Sociopath Party". This morning they are desperately attempting to put out the spin that the shutdown is the fault of the president. It isn't. We must not forget that he is there to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution the United States". Obamacare (they don't dare call it by its real name: the Affordable Health Care Act) has been judged to be constitutional by the Supreme Court. Holding the executive hostage over a law that is already on the books, on the other hand, is not only unconstitutional (That's obvious) it's also criminal. I thought I'd just point that out.
So, put your feet up, grab a couple of bags of pistachio, sit back in your favorite easy chair, and enjoy the farce while the country that you love implodes from within. This ought to be loads of fun to watch.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
SUGGESTED READING:
The Jungle
by Upton Sinclair
Three events of note took place on November 25, 1968: the Beatles released the "White Album", my beloved friend Rosemarie was born, and Upton Sinclair died.
In the case of Sinclair, his 1906 novel about the stark realities in the lives of working men and women in America had been all-but-forgotten by the time he passed from the scene. In recent years, however, the book has had quite a renaissance - and with no little wonder. At the turn of the last century there was no-such-thing as a middle class in this country. There was the "professional class" (Doctors, Lawyers, etc.) but the plutocracy held most of the wealth while nearly everyone else lived in poverty. Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal put an end to that economic madness. Unfortunately it wasn't a permanent ending as recent years have proven. The middle class that FDR bought into being is dying on a poisoned vine.
By all means give The Jungle a read sometime, and have a look at life during the Gilded Age - or as I like to refer to that time and place: "America's Conservative Paradise".
Well the silly bastards and bitches did it. At the stroke of midnight on October 1, 2013, the government of the United States of America ceased to be - at least for the time being. I can't see this lasting very long, but then again, a certain political party in recent years has redefined the process of "governing" to mean doing away with government. As Molly Ivins once pointed out, putting people in charge of your government who don't believe in government is generally not a very nifty idea. If you don't understand that by now you will soon enough. This is going to be interesting.
The really amazing thing is the fact that the congresspersons from the red states have no fear of voter-backlash because most of their constituents have no problem with the shutdown. In fact they're cheering their representatives on. It would appear that the overwhelming majority of these assholes will be reelected during next year's midterms. Ain't that a knee-slapper? How on earth are the Democrats expected to gain a majority anytime soon if these half-witted Tea Partiers keep getting sent back to DC every two years? I have a plan....
The secret is not-so-much in concentrating on the red states. They're a lost cause. Let's face some serious and uncomfortable facts, boys and girls: Most of the voters in those regions of this diseased nation are just too idiotic to do the right thing at the ballot box. If this country is to be saved it will only be saved by the voters in the blue and purple states. And they will be able to do that by sending every Republican that represents them in Washington packing in November of 2014.
 |
| Peter King, R. NY |
Yeah, I realize that that's a pipe dream on my part, but these are desperate times. Got any better ideas?
The one beautiful thing about this entire mess is that - for all the damage that's being done to the United States - it surely is an amusing spectacle to behold. I'm sure that watching Nero playing the fiddle while Rome burned all around him must have been a funny thing to witness as well. You can say anything you want about the times in which we live, but you can't say that they're boring. Anything but. In fact I cannot recall an era more entertaining - in terms of pure ideological insanity - than this one. The ancient Chinese used to say, "May you live in interesting times". It was a blessing and a curse.
And to think that this all came about simply because the tea-partying hardliners refuse to extend affordable health care to the poor and working classes. They should be renamed the "Sociopath Party". This morning they are desperately attempting to put out the spin that the shutdown is the fault of the president. It isn't. We must not forget that he is there to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution the United States". Obamacare (they don't dare call it by its real name: the Affordable Health Care Act) has been judged to be constitutional by the Supreme Court. Holding the executive hostage over a law that is already on the books, on the other hand, is not only unconstitutional (That's obvious) it's also criminal. I thought I'd just point that out.So, put your feet up, grab a couple of bags of pistachio, sit back in your favorite easy chair, and enjoy the farce while the country that you love implodes from within. This ought to be loads of fun to watch.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
SUGGESTED READING:
 |
| Upton Sinclair |
by Upton Sinclair
Three events of note took place on November 25, 1968: the Beatles released the "White Album", my beloved friend Rosemarie was born, and Upton Sinclair died.
In the case of Sinclair, his 1906 novel about the stark realities in the lives of working men and women in America had been all-but-forgotten by the time he passed from the scene. In recent years, however, the book has had quite a renaissance - and with no little wonder. At the turn of the last century there was no-such-thing as a middle class in this country. There was the "professional class" (Doctors, Lawyers, etc.) but the plutocracy held most of the wealth while nearly everyone else lived in poverty. Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal put an end to that economic madness. Unfortunately it wasn't a permanent ending as recent years have proven. The middle class that FDR bought into being is dying on a poisoned vine.
By all means give The Jungle a read sometime, and have a look at life during the Gilded Age - or as I like to refer to that time and place: "America's Conservative Paradise".
posted by Tom Degan @ 9:32 AM
125 comments
125 Comments:
"they are one-hundred percent correct when they says that shutting down the government is a really dumb thing to do."
Hear that Harry Reid?
"shutting down the government is a really dumb thing to do."
Bob Woodward of The Washington Post said if there is a “downturn or a collapse” resulting from the failure of CR or debt ceiling negotiations it will be on President Obama’s “head” Monday on Morning Joe.
Woodward noted he respected President Obama’s objection to negotiating on the debt ceiling, but criticized the administration for failing to initiate any dialogue that could result in a deal on funding the government.
“It’s on the president’s head, he’s got to lead, he’s got to talk” Woodward said:
BOB WOODWARD: Can I enter in here just for a moment because I think it’s a good question. And there is something the president could be doing. He said he will not negotiate on the debt ceiling. A reasonable position. “I will not be blackmailed” he said. But he should be talking. They should be meeting, discussing this, because as I think Steve Ratner showed earlier, the American economy is at stake and the president, if there is a downturn or a collapse or whatever could happen here that’s bad, it’s going to be on his head. The history books are going to say, we had an economic calamity in the Presidency of Barack Obama. Speaker Boehner, indeed, is playing a role on this. Go back to the Great Depression in the 1930s. I’ll bet no one can name who was the speaker of the House at the time. Henry Thomas Rainey. He’s not in the history book it’s on the president’s head. He’s got to lead. He’s got to talk. And the absence of discussion here, I think, is baffling element.
Yeah, the whole "it's all the Republicans fault" is Orwellian messsage-making.
Truth is we have an economic situation that NONE of them has any clue what to do with. And for the simple reason that there is little that can be done. The plane has no landing gear - best we can hope is that it can be emergency landed with only a few injuries and not go up in flames.
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In the Koolade colored bubble of the radical Right, Reid shut down the government. Astounding.
Just as the hostage taker is blameless, and the crime is in not paying the ransom.
Henry Thomas Rainey didn't hold a law upheld by the Supreme Court as hostage to his demands before shutting down the government, did he?
Remember this fact. Through gerrymandering, the House is controlled by Republicans. Yet more Americans voted for Democratic representation. The radical Right has always been in opposition to democracy.
Their actions are not representing the American people.
The small minority Tea Party cult demanding dictatorial rule over the majority will be remembered as the most destructive anti-American force to ever enter Washington DC.
And they are anti-American. They hate our Constitutional duty of government to tax and regulate commerce.
Molly was so correct. What kind of governing can you expect when you vote for idiots who hate government and oppose democracy and the Constitution?
Right? "Right".
Harley, are you saying this shutdown would have happened even if the House was actually controlled by the party supported by the majority of American voters?
They irony is the shutdown will cost taxpayers even more.
Thank you tea cult.
“The Democrats think they benefit from a government shutdown. I agree.” – John Boehner
"Harley, are you saying this shutdown would have happened even if the House was actually controlled by the party supported by the majority of American voters?"
No, I'm saying the shutdown is the fault of both parties. It is the result of decades of fundamental flawed economic philosophy - not days or months of decision-making. The shutdown is a symptom - not the issue. Both parties are complicit - neither is the party of virtue.
"Obamacare" is bad policy plain and simple - left, right, or middle. No one is saying healthcare doesn't need some reform, but it moves healthcare down the wrong path - and will end up raising premiums - and placing MORE of the healthcare dollar in the insurance companies (bank's) pockets. Someone on the left explain to me how you feel it helps. Especially given the fact that it was "right wing" policy just a decade ago. The whole thing has flip-flopped. Should tell you a lot about the values and beliefs of the career politicians our country is being (has been) destroyed by.
Partisanism clouds thinking.
There's nary a person in that building that shouldn't be thrown out today...
And, DD, I think if you stripped away all the arguments about the "hows" most of us all likely want roughly the same outcomes for our families and our country.
That's the sad truth in all of this...
Harley,
I agree heartily that both major parties are more concerned with power than governing. Both have acted against our Bill of Rights with FISA and the Patriot Act. Both are to blame for a war of aggression and the invasion and ongoing destruction in Iraq. We didn’t liberate them as much as we gave them a civil war. The Bush War body count continues, but it’s “only Iraqis”. But we still have to pay a couple trillion dollars for that mess.
I'm saying the shutdown is the fault of both parties.
If the House was controlled by the party most Americans voted for, then the shutdown would not happen. Therefore Republicans really do have a larger share of the blame.
It is false equivalence to say both parties share an equal part of the blame on the shutdown. One party is openly dedicated to undermining and obstructing what the voters have spoken on in the last two presidential elections.
I’m not sure what common ground there can be if one group hates government, opposes safety nets, and adds restrictions to voter registration and limits poll access. How these could possibly lead to better outcomes for average families has never been explained. Add to this the constant barrage of Right Wing propaganda that suggests liberals are commies out to destroy America, and what we have left is a schism that is irreparable and destructive to compromise and democracy.
As hopelessly out of touch and spineless as the Dems are, I’m forced to vote for them over the anti-democratic actions (as in anti-democracy, not anti-Democratic Party) and delusional, deception-based, and hateful divisiveness of the radical Right that has taken control of the Republican Party. By “delusional, deception-based, hateful divisiveness” I’m talking about birthers and death panel nuts who’ve found political power in the tea cult.
These are yet more sad truths to add, I’m afraid.
As far as Obamacare goes, it is not a liberal plan. Never was. Corporatists of both parties made it wealthcare over healthcare. Insurance rates have been skyrocketing, with or without Obamacare. Sick and poor people were going without health care. This why we needed reform. And we still do. We have numerous examples of single payer healthcare systems that have better health outcomes at lower cost. Sorry if that looks like socialism to you. No one has yet explained why insurance CEO’s need billions of our healthcare dollars in their pockets for a more efficient, sane and compassionate system of healthcare.
"Obamacare" is bad policy plain and simple - left, right, or middle.
This sounds exactly like partisan ideology.
There is one measure you left out. People previously denied coverage will be getting healthcare.
You’re right, we still need healthcare reform. Liberals know how to fix it. But the sad fact is the liberal plan was never considered, or even welcomed at the table. Insurance companies and their politicians were, of course.
Now do you see what we mean by “corporatocracy”?
What about the Right’s health care plan? Nobody wants to discuss that for some reason.
“Let ‘em die” is what we’ve heard endorsed by the Right. Not much else.
Good one, Dave! I'm tempted to turn this site over to you!
No Davey, in the REAL world Reid has turned down 3 spending bills sent to him from congress that would have prevented the "govt shutdown. In the REAL world Obama has refused to talk to Congress about what they of the House of the People want. And you want to blame the House? Please!
That's the REAL world that you can't seem to grasp, or don't want to grasp.
How in your bubble, left wing McCarthyism world do you figure that people who expect the Govt to do what they say is akin to hating Govt? Like pay it's bill, stop borrowing, stop spending? Do you understand that the majority of Americans do not want the ACA (Obamacare), they don't trust the Democratic run Federal Govt?
Go ahead and now blame these poll results on Limbaugh, Beck and Fox News. To do so assume a lot of things on your part.
#1 that most of those polled were listeners or watchers of those I just listed.
#2 that commercial non cable broadcast news reaches fewer viewers than Fox News, which is not factual.
#3 That you believe it is UnAmerican to disagree with "our Constitutional duty of government to tax and regulate commerce". (Didn't H. Clinton say that dissent was patriotic?)
#4 That you believe wanting lower income taxes and fewer regulations on commerce to be Anti American.
#5 That you believe the Federal Govt. is America.
#6 That you believe that all Federal Laws should be enforced with the same determination as our regulator and tax laws.
Davey, we can get you the help that you need but you first have to recognize that you need the help.
“If the House was controlled by the party most Americans voted for, then the shutdown would not happen. Therefore Republicans really do have a larger share of the blame.”
Not false equivalence – purely beside the point. Same could be said if the President were a Republican.
Also, remember, while Obama unilaterally made exceptions to the enacted legislation after the fact, he claims “foul” for the Republicans who wanted to take a similar action – 1 year delay. BOTH SIDES WANT THIS SHUTDOWN TO HAPPEN FOR POLITICAL REASONS. If you believe otherwise you’re blinded by partisan thinking. My comment was in no way partisan. I’d have said the same thing if the Republicans had trotted it out.
“There is one measure you left out. People previously denied coverage will be getting healthcare.”
I didn’t leave that out. That fact is the primary reason healthcare premiums will be on the rise across the board. Simply handing our coverage doesn’t neatly solve everything. Unless you nationalize this market, the market forces will respond. As I tried to explain in a previous post, the market is being told to behave in ways that fly in the face of actuarial practice – and for good reason – they’ll go broke. So, unless Obama nationalizes the thing, the market forces still at their command will kick in (already are). You can’t have it both ways – which is what “Obamacare” seeks to do. I’m not arguing free market vs. state-run. What we have is neither. It is, like the rest of our economy, bank run. The insurance construct we have now IS the problem – Obamacare further entrenches it…
Here's what the left is saying about the GOP controlled House. Does this sound like normal, rational, open minded willing to comprise people to you?
T.y.m.e. @_iVegan
Those babies in the #GOP / #Teaparty have probably launched a DOS attack on the ACA websites to get their way.
9:50 AM - 1 Oct 2013
PaulPimentel @PaulPimentel
Teabaggers launched Denial of Service attack to deny uninsured Americans access to info about hc options. #treason
Alan Eggleston @AlanEggleston
@LOLGOP Looks like there might be a denial of service attack by right wingers going on, too. Rights of others is so beneath them.
John @jhf5
I wonder if the Koch or others have paid to do denial of service on http://healthcare.gov websites? Hope not, very illegal.
Don Strong @DesiredFX
Well, the Republican botnet Grover Norquist assembled has successfully orchestrated a denial-of-service attack on the US government.
Government shutdown due to the color of Obama's skin, suggests Ivy League prof (University of Pennsylvania (UPenn), Associate Professor Anthea Butler in Twitter rant.
Shutdown due to 'dumbasses' and 'jackassery,' she tweeted
Previously the same prof came under fire for calling God a 'white racist'
GOP must stop regulating vaginas, she added.
Dem Rep. Joe Garcia Refers To Republicans As The “Taliban” On House Floor.
Hey, just because the Taliban beheads people and sends suicide bombers to blow up markets full of civilians doesn’t mean you can’t compare Republicans to them.
WASHINGTON — Just because the federal government is shutting down doesn’t mean Democrats and their union allies won’t hold celebrations of the implementation of Obamacare inside the U.S. Capitol on Tuesday.
“Still on,” reads a press release distributed by Americans United for Change, a liberal group helping to organize celebrations across the country in support of opening up of the Obamacare exchanges.
“At 2 PM on Capitol Hill, the progressive community will come together to celebrate the Affordable Care Act and open enrollment, a big milestone in the decades-long battle for health care reform,” the group announced.
Among those expected at the rally inside the Capitol: House minority leader Nancy Pelosi, Senate majority leader Harry Reid, SEIU president Mary Kay Henry and AFSCME president Lee Saunders.
And this GEM: "The radical Right has ALWAYS been in opposition to democracy." That's pure bovine scat, in the lefts mind anyone who disagrees with them is a Radical!
And you really expect a Conservative, or Tea Party member to take liberals seriously? When the loony left is saying and believing things just posted?
Wake up lefties, the majority of Americans do not want Obama Care! Face that reality instead of holding on to some conspiracy theory that even Art Bell couldn't believe!
Tom,
Thanks, but we need your posts to agitate the agitators. ;-)
Harley,
"Both sides..." is more corporate media false equivalence. Only the "Tea Party" wanted it. Now they got it. They control the GOP now.
Chuckie,
Focus sport, focus. You're spinning out of relevance. Why can't you tell us your sane and compassionate healthcare program?
You're bubble view is plain to see. "the majority of Americans...they don't trust the Democratic run Federal Govt".
But the majority voted for Democrats. Yup.
True, sport. Honest to God. Well, maybe not in your bubble.
The fact is the majority of Americans DID NOT VOTE FOR REPUBLICANS. But they still think they can run the show, against the will of the people. How authoritarian. How dictatorial
No matter how much you hold your breath, pout or whine, and make up accusations about me, these are the facts.
Obama won the election. Get over it.
The ACA is constitutional. Get over it.
Democrats won the Senate. Get over it.
The Tea Party controlled Republicans won the House, despite the fact MORE AMERICANS VOTED FOR DEMOCRATS than Republicans for representation.
"House of the People"...What a joke. More accurately the radical house of the crackpot "death panel" birther minority.
Opposition to Democracy 101. Overrule the will of the voters.
Now we see what happens when the minority fringe has its way.
Fascism takes root in the same way.
"The radical Right has ALWAYS been in opposition to democracy."
You're anger and refusal to accept the above facts support this truth.
Not to mention GOP restrictions to voter registration and limiting poll access. Definitely anti-democracy.
It is obvious they oppose democracy. You do to. You hate the fact the Right hasn't usurped all branches instead of just the House. You want the minority to impose its will on the majority. You want a dictatorship.
Well done. You've passed Fascism 101.
Blame Reid for refusing the ransom note of dictatorial demands in the "3 spending bills sent to him from congress". You forgot the list of demands attached. As if the bills contained only spending.
This is Tea Party politics at its worst. They are as compromising as the Taliban. If they could, they would have all our heads just like their fellow fanatics. After all, what would be your "final solution" to the "liberal problem" you have described in your own words as "destroying America"?
Oh, that's right, you don't answer questions. You only spew accusations...gee, sort of like the Taliban. Keep at it. You'll get there someday.
Now tell us your healthcare alternative, sport.
LOL!
" agitators" Anyone who disagrees with Dave and is not a liberal.
A "radical agitator" is anyone who has the nerve to post their disagreement where Dave can read it.
The Tea Party according to Dave is the onset to the American Fascist Party. Only liberalism prevents Fascism, but history does not support that belief.
Guess what Dave, there are a lot of laws this President and his AG have decided not to enforce or obey. Like illegal immigration laws, or federal pot laws being violated by State laws. Those laws are Constitutional, so why aren't they being enforced?
Govt shut down is The Executive branch and Senates fault. If they don't like the laws the House sends, why don't they try compromise, if they really are interested in govt working? No moderate or compromise from the Radical Left, that's for sure.
Never mind, you will not give a straight answer if your life depended on it. But you demand your questions be answered that others be moderate in their position or risk being called fascist's.
Davey,
Why bother with a conservative version of a health care bill, Reid wont allow it to be voted on and if he did and if it passed Obama would veto it.
Just like the bills the house passed and sent to the Senate. Seen it so many times since the GOP took back the Peoples House
What amazes me is you don't like the plan but are critical of those who oppose the plan. Bipolar or schizo, not sure what I'm dealing with in you. But you can get help for your liberal rage if you just admit you are powerless to stop it and ask for help.
Sport!
Blah, blah, blah ...
Republican apologists have a way of talking a lot about non-factual bullsh@t , but the fact remains that their party, and their party alone, shut down a not insubstantial part of the government over a law that opens health insurance to 30 million Americans.
Oooohhh, good cause to fight over! Now prepare to learn that history repeats itself, i.e. Newt's fall from "Grace." It's 1995 all over again! Stupid-@ss "contract for America," anyone?
Keep up the good fight, Tom!
Best wishes,
Brett
An American in the Heartland
A friend of mine summed up the "both sides are to blame" argument perfectly. How I wish I could take credit for this:
"Both sides are to blame" = “It’s like a guy who says he wants to fuck your wife. She says no. He keeps demanding it. She takes him to court and gets a restraining order. He still demands he be allowed to fuck her. She still says no. He says, “okay, I only want to squeeze her tits.” When she still says no, he claims she’s the one at fault because she refuses to compromise.”
Still, no one is wanting to answer the issue.
Obama unilaterally made a change to "his" law. When the Repubs wanted to make a similar change - he says "no way". My way or the highway.
His lack of leadership and autocratic leanings are just as to blame - crude, sophomoric and false analogies notwithstanding...
Also, no one is answering the FACT that now the insurance industry will partake in MORE of the healthcare dollar than they do already. Obamacare is in no way "liberal" though it has the facade of being so.
Critical thinking has left the building...
Chuckie,
Why bother with a conservative version of a health care bill.
Still can’t produce a sane and compassionate healthcare plan?
Absolutely. “Let ‘em die” works for the radical Right.
the GOP took back the Peoples House
“Took” is right, As I explained, most Americans want a Democrat Representative.
Now it’s the Tea Cult House extorting our nation.
Brick,
Yes! You nailed it. Too bad Chuckie won’t read or understand your point. Not in his bubble.
Harley,
Sure Obama postponed a measure. Get some perspective. I bet it kills fewer Americans than Bush’s invasion of Iraq. I also say it’s a lot less offensive to freedom and the Bill of Rights than their FISA and Patriot Act.
If I were to choose my battle it would be in that arena, not healthcare. Sheesh,
I again refer to Brick’s accurate analogy. The House has a duty to fund the government. Remember the Constitution? As with the Bible, the Tea Cult hollers about it, but it doesn’t look like they actually read it.
The Tea Cult is withholding that required funding to extort something that would not be voted for by both Houses. Read that again to get my point. It is called extortion.
See what I mean by anti-democracy? Tyranny of the minority is upon us. The corporate funded Tea Cult has taken over the corporate funded GOP that obstructs the corporate funded Democratic Party.
Obamacare is in no way "liberal" though it has the facade of being so.
Yes, but the Right always frames it as liberal. Why don’t you challenge THEM on that? Does the word “corporatocracy” make any sense to you yet?
We’ve made it clear what the liberal healthcare solution is. It is cheaper and has better outcomes. And we have ongoing evidence of this provided by more civilized countries, blessed by not having a Tea Cult.
Has it occurred to you if the GOP wanted healthcare reform they would have done it when they had both houses of Congress and the White House?
My question for the Right is, (Yeah, I know it won't be answered) Since the ACA has been adjudicated to be Constitutional, why doesn't the Tea Cult demand repeal of Section 212 of the Patriot Act and the FISA Amendment, instead of their obsession with denying expanded healthcare?
Anyone?
Oh dear, I may be called a commie for this one...
Brick's analogy was (again) crude, sophomoric, and false. And, not something I'd entertain in collegial adult conversation.
I will answer your issue regarding no "plan" coming from the right. The answer is this. A lack of a plan on their part does not in any way condone a bad plan from the other side. It is technically beside the point.
But, I'll go one further and give you MY opinion (which doesn't necessarily mean it is the "right's" opinion). The problem (healthcare) is a raging forest fire in need of a massive, courageous response. Not a grass fire in need of minor attention. The problem is not "solvable" given what we have to work with in DC. They are ALL beholden to the insurance lobby, so we're stuck in la-la land.
So, forgive me if I'm not excited about Obama's throwing a mixture of water and gasoline on the forest fire. It has NOTHING to do with his party, his skin color, or any of that. I actually judge things on their merit best I can. It is a corporatist policy clad in liberal/populist garb.
And, nowhere do I back the right in all cases - they are part of the bankocracy like all of them. This is why you'll not get a real solution to the problem. The pathway to a real solution is outside the scope of my knowledge and study, but I'm reasonably sure it begins with decoupling from the insurance (banking) industry - not further entrenching it.
And, we agree, Patriot Act was bad policy. Granting of "emergency powers" usually is. I'd repeal the whole thing.
Harley,
It is a corporatist policy clad in liberal/populist garb.
Thank you.
So the word "corporatocracy" seems to resonate with you. Good. Let's get corporate cash out of our elections with a law that says corporations are not persons, not citizens and not entitled to collective rights that overpower individual rights.
Only when cons and libs agree this is a huge problem can we make...excuse the word...progress.
GOP and healthcare: I would most certainly assert a lack of action when they held absolute power coupled with a demand for repeal of an existing plan is relevant and telling. It says they are happy with the old system that was unpopular and failing to begin with. If the GOP refuses to offer a sane and compassionate healthcare plan, then too bad. This is part of the reason we are stuck with Obama's "wealthcare".
I think Brick's analogy stands, no matter how crude. It is not "compromise" when extortion is the better descriptor. The Constitution says they need to fund the government. They offer nothing. No concessions, just their job requirement, and that is NOT open to "compromise" aka, implementing the agenda of the minority.
Let's reverse the scenario. What would it be if Democrats attached their demands to a Constitutionally required bill-- say no sequester, higher taxes on the rich, a carbon tax, assault weapons ban, etc. And then ask the GOP to "compromise"? This is what you'd be endorsing if the situation were reversed. And one of these actually has the support of most Americans.
See what I mean?
My point stands. The Tea Cult is withholding Constitutionally mandated funding to extort something that would not be voted for by both Houses.
This is not how a democratic republic functions.
Here's a less crude analogy.
A guy orders a tank of heating fuel. The bill comes and he demands to "negotiate" by insisting that a new furnace be thrown in with the fuel.
This is an example of a non-negotiable situation. You can arrange payments, but you cannot refuse payment and demand something in addition as condition of payment. This what the Tea Cult is doing.
Maybe this helps. What concessions are the GOP and fuel purchaser allowing as "compromise" for them to do what is required? None. This is why extortion is the best descriptor.
This is nothing more than The Tea Cult saying "My way or the highway. Do as we demand or we don't do our job".
There's the bottom line. This from the "party of responsibility". HA.
I saw this quote in an article's comment section - I thought it summed it up...
"Is Red Team Garbage supposed to smell better when it comes from the Blue Garbage Truck and is fed to the Sheeple by the Blue Team? Does that mean it isn't Blue Garbage?"
The Obama Administration has decided to block access to public memorials on the National Mall as a result of the government shutdown. Like its decision to end White House tours when the sequester cuts took effect, there is no rational reason for this. The Park Police, nominally in charge of monitoring these spaces, isn't even effected by the shutdown. Shutting off access to these sites is gratuitous and petulant. Mike Flynn
This is a Democrat, liberal planned, govt shut down. The WH and Reid have been offered several bills to fund the govt, but have refused to allow them to be voted on or have promised to veto if they don't get their way. The failure to work together for the good of our Nation lies 100% on them. Where is their counter offer? Where is their plan?
When will the Democrats demand that all Constitutional laws be enforced and obeyed as they demand Obama Care be obeyed and enforced?
Why is it Democrats demand Federal law be enforced and obeyed in all the States except for example, those concerning immigration and pot?
Why is it if Obama Care is not a good law, as Democrats and liberals have said on this blog, do they want to enforce it with out even talking about improving it? Or even read the law?
Who calls the GOP Fascists?
Who claims they are being called commies?
Which Party has struck sweetheart deals with BIG Business allowing Big Business to get out from under Obama care?
Why are Unions screaming they to be excluded from having to obey Obama Care?
Who should the employees of the House, Senate, White House staff be given a wavier from Obama Care if it is such a great deal?
Why is dissent patriotic only when a Democrat or liberal does it?
Why is it when Conservatives disagree with liberal policy they are accused of hating America, but never when liberals disagree with conservative policy?
Why do the Democrats and liberals refuse to deal with and act on the fact that the majority of Americans do not want Obama Care? Is it because Liberals and Democrats hate the majority of Americans?
Both parties have long outlasted their usefulness they may have once had for the country. We now go to wars of choice and political gain based on falsehoods. We the people are less represented than corporate cash. They hand our healthcare, and even criminal justice, over to corporations.
Private profit at public cost is the operating principle of our corporatocracy.
End corporate citizenship and corporate collective rights in our elections.
It is our only hope. Trust me.
We either unite as citizens, or entrust and empower a corporate controlled government. Those are the only options with our outdated, bought and paid for two party system. All we get from them is "Piss in the jar", "mandatory minimum sentences", "take off your shoes and spread your legs", and most dire of all. "We can listen in and monitor ALL of your communications without a warrant".
This is not the America I grew up in, and it is not the fault of any liberal or conservative citizen. It is an institutionalized nexus of corporate and government power.
This comment has been removed by the author.
The WH and Reid have been offered several bills to fund the govt,
Right. Clean bills? No. And what extortion demands were included, sport? You can't even mention them, can you?
Nope.
This is a Democrat, liberal planned, govt shut down.
False. Glug, glug glug. Have some more koolade. The funding bill would be passed without the Tea Cult extortion provisions. Simple.
Is it because Liberals and Democrats hate the majority of Americans?
(Because we're "commies", right?)
False again. Glug glug goes the koolade.
Sounds a lot like, "Is it because Jews and socialists hate the majority of Germans?"
Listen sport, YOU and your radical Right ideology are accusing good Americans of "destroying the country".
Can't get more hateful and ignorant than that.
You hate and scapegoat liberals just like fascists did to Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals. You'd hate them too, if your cult leaders told you too.
If you don't want to be called a fascist, then stop acting like one.
Simple.
Aww geez. Even the Right Wing Forbes says:
“New Poll: Only One-Third Of Americans Support Repealing, Defunding Or Delaying Obamacare”
"Why would we want to save on kid with cancer?"
Harry Reid, the real face of liberalism is finally exposed!
For the “context impaired” nitwits who also think Obama said, “You didn’t build your business”.
The troll is getting desperate. Time to call liberals commies.
"If you don't want to be called a fascist, then stop acting like one."
Wow, gee whiz, I better act and do like Davey and other liberals demand I do or I'm a fascist. But don't call liberals commies, oh no, don't do that. It's not fair, it's not Christian to do that, it's UN-American to disagree with liberals, its not patriotic to disagree with liberals, there is only one true America and than is the one envisioned by liberals.
No dissent allowed under liberalism. Davey provides the evidence of that reality in ever one of his posts.
All other views must be stamped out, kind like Stalin did with those who disagreed with him. Close down Fox News, shut off conservative talk show radio, end protection of freedom of the press for the internet and it's conservative blogs, outlaw pro life protests, prevent conservative speakers from speaking at forums at University's. No dissent is allowed under today's liberal regime, no presenting of another point of view or for that matter any view that doesn't support the liberal one.
Davey, do you demand our federal drug and immigration laws be enforced and obeyed by all states and all citizens since these laws are also Constitutional? Or just the law of your choice, the ACA?
Do you think you were lied to when Obama said you could keep your Dr or Health insurance under Obamcare? Do you think you were lied to when you were told the cost of your health care would go down by Obama under the ACA?
Extortion is an interesting term to use on a law that when was passed, we were told "to know what's in the bill, you need to read it". Or how about this, "we won, you lost, get over it"? Or "what difference does it matter now anyway?" Very moderate positions? No, instead they are very liberal statements.
Just review the sample of things liberals have said about those opposed to ACA for an example of liberal tolerance that I posted earlier.
Davey, you can repeat your tired worn out rants all you want, but you and those who believe as you do are now the radicals that are a threat to our freedom, our liberty, because we do not agree with you. To think that one who disagrees with liberalism hates Americans or America as liberals are now are claiming is the lowest point in their argument to support their liberal policy's.
Gee, Thanks, Chuckie,
All other views must be stamped out, kind like Stalin did with those who disagreed with him. Close down Fox News, shut off conservative talk show radio, end protection of freedom of the press for the internet and it's conservative blogs, outlaw pro life protests, prevent conservative speakers from speaking at forums at University's. No dissent is allowed under today's liberal regime, no presenting of another point of view or for that matter any view that doesn't support the liberal one.
We'd ask you for evidence upon which you base your simpering bawling resentments, but you don't answer questions, do you, sport? You do not because you cannot.
The hate and falsehoods reek from your whiny crybaby post. We see you've completely given up on facts and reason.
"The liberal commie called me names and said I was hateful." Waahh.
This from the ilk who called us traitors for pointing out the falsehoods for Bush's war of aggression.
If you don't want to be called a fascist, then stop acting like one.
Simple.
Davey,
Why don't you be a "sport" and deal with the positions, evidence and positions brought to you? That would be a nifty change for once. I can only assume you don't because either you don't have answers (one of your tactics) or you dont like the answers.
BTW here is the link to the Reid statement for those who dont trust or believe Davey.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XRfhJFZrJw
And the answer from Reid is the child with cancer can not vote? In other words, Reid is his own death panel, oops, those things don't exist do they? But any death of any children due to lack of treatment is based 100% on Reid's action.
BTW the way Harry, isn't it the job of the House, who control the spending of our Nation, to pick and choose what OUR money is to be spent on?
Davey, you and Harry have lost all creditability. Your arguments are meant to do one thing and that is to shut down any voice of dissent towards your radical, liberal far left wing agenda.
Saving America the liberal version.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BaF5ROfu0s&noredirect=1
Let’s face it. ObamaCare was passed by Congress, signed into law by the President, and approved as constitutional by the Supreme Court. Not only that, the President, who is closely associated with and supportive of ObamaCare, who even has his name in its nickname, was reelected decisively last year.
It is not going away. Most of the arguments about ObamaCare on this and other blogs remind me of the medieval arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
This is really too easy: President Obama is willing to negotiate with Iran, but not with the House of Representatives. Commentators have been all over it, and I don’t really have much to add. Except to note that not only has Obama refused to negotiate with the House, he has also had his spokesman describe Republicans as suicide bombers. The irony is rich: those who are concerned about $17 trillion in debt “have bombs strapped to their chests,” while the world’s biggest sponsor of actual suicide bombers–you know, the ones who blow people up, as opposed to disagreeing with Democrats–are newly-discovered moderates.
Sport,
"A nifty change for once" would be YOU answering ONE question. YOU REFUSE. But there you go again, demanding answers to preposterous loaded questions and accusations.
Ah, here comes the "Death Panel" accusation...again. What a cult.
If the GOP had sent a spending bill without extortion, this nonsense would not happen. What were their extortion demands, sport?
Oops, you don't answer questions. My bad.
As it is sport, How many kids will be denied benefits due to pre-existing conditions if Obamacare is repealed?
Oops. That was unfair. Only YOU get to ask questions, as if you were like your fellow radical Right Gestapo types.
Achtung!! Herr Chuckie has questions. Answer now, or be accused of hating America!
If you don't want to be called a fascist, then stop acting like one.
Simple.
Ron,
As you know, reality is not part of the radical Right's bubble. Blame Harry Reid for not "compromising" that is, giving in to the Tea Cult's extortion. "Compromise" is doing exactly what the fascists tell you to do. Nicht Wahr, mein Freund?
Health care = radical, liberal far left wing agenda to these wackos.
Must be what the call "compassionate conservatism". "Let 'em die" or give in to the Tea Cult demands. That's exactly what they are about, too.
No wonder they get compared to fascists and the Taliban. They will sacrifice human beings to their radical ideology.
And their hate is right up there too.
you don't have answers Another LIE. Anyone who can read can go back and see how I've answered his questions, and in return get nothing but demands for more answers. Very Gestapo. Imagine if authoritarians like him are armed and permitted to impose their "final solution" on liberals.
For the readers' edification, and contrary to Chuckies false claim that the only the House can "pick and choose" what to fund, we have:
Section 7
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives;
but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.
So you see, it's not the Tea Party's way or the highway after all. But they did shut it down because their extortion demands were not met.
Did the GOP offer any concessions in their so-called negotiations? Of course not. To them, "compromise" is doing what they dictate.
That's it.
If they don't want to be compared to fascists, then they should stop acting like them.
Simple.
Perception is everything. Americans believe this is the fault of the Republicans. Ouch!
"Did the GOP offer any concessions in their so-called negotiations? Of course not."
BOLD lie from DD, again.
Nice try Harry, but you need to follow DD's example and not acknowledge anything you dont want to discuss.
HARRY REID: The whole answer is this: Why would we want to have the House of Representatives, John Boehner, cherry-pick what stays open and what stays closed. Listen, I gave a speech on the floor talking about the babies, 30 babies. Little kids who are not going to have clinical trials, of course I care about that. I have 16 of my own grandchildren, five children. But I also care about the Centers for Disease Control, which in the last few weeks discovered a terrible outbreak that killed people, they found by what their expertise that they had, it was coming from pomegranate seeds that came from some foreign country. They’re not working today, looking for the next scourge that infects people. The fires they put out every week in America, it’s because they are good. CDC is basically closed now.
So, What I told Dana Bash who is a fine reporter, is that we care about all these things, we care about our state parks, our veterans, but we can’t fall into that trap. Here is the trap, of the Cruz-led Republicans, and that is this. Listen, we’ll cherry pick. We’ll open this today and this tomorrow, and finally at the end everything will be open except the money to finish Obamacare. But what Dr. Coburn has said, this is ridiculous, because Obamacare if nothing happens, about 90% of it is funded anyway. But they are so mercenary, so determined to destroy the president’s signature issue that they would go to the extreme of shutting down the government.
Hey, there are bills that fund the CDC but Harry says no way, that would be cherry picking. What do you say Dave? Give us the latest liberal spin on this.
You have to bribe people to sign up for Obama care?
The Nashville Business Journal is reporting that Community Health Alliance, Tennessee’s Obamacare health insurance co-op, is using the prospect of a free phone to encourage folks to enroll:
Community Health Alliance, Tennessee’s health insurance co-op, is running a unique promotional program to drive enrollment in its plans for sale on the exchange: health insurance in exchange for a smartphone.
As part of its Community Health Connection Program, CHA is offering qualified individuals an LG Lucid 2 4G smart phone (or equivalent model), a phone plan and tech support, included as a cost of their health plan benefits. The phone plan includes unlimited talk, unlimited texting and 1.2GB of data.
The idea is to make it easier for providers and patients to stay connected, but it will also help CHA keep track of its member population, many of whom are expected to be new to the health insurance market.
Reuters obtained an EPA guidance in which the agency said it would “classify 1,069 employees, out of 16,205, as essential,” which is about 6.6% of the agency’s workforce, in the event of a government shutdown, which occurred on Tuesday.
The guidance also reportedly said that “most workers at the Office of Air and Radiation, which is in charge of writing and implementing most of the EPA’s major air pollution rules,” would be furloughed, which will tighten the various deadlines facing the agency.
About what I thought, only 6.6% of the Federal bureaucracy is essential. Rest, well not so much so.
DD - this is what I'm talking about.
From a Roosevelt Institute article...
Serious reform or status quo? Marshall Auerback warns that Obamacare dangerously expands the role of the health insurance industry.
The healthcare legislation is important politically since President Obama now looks suddenly like a “winner”. But will it actually achieve the objective of improving the nation’s health care? Yes, more people will get INSURANCE. Will they actually get more health care paid for?
Not necessarily. We’ve had a bailout for bankers and now the principle seems to be extended to the insurance industry. As Randy Wray and I discussed in a recent paper, the health care bill just signed into law entrenches the centrality of private health insurance companies and contain no serious proposals to limit costs. More people will get hit with deductions, co-pays, annual limits (for several more years), exclusions, out of pocket expenses. This will ensure that health CARE remains too expensive to actually take advantage of their new INSURANCE. And many currently insured people are going to get higher taxes. Premiums will rise.
Health insurance is the primary payment mechanism not just for expenses that are unexpected and large, but for nearly all health-care expenses. It’s akin to going to your local grocery store, buying food, submitting the bill to a 3rd party who reviews it, reimburses the grocer for part of the cost, and then extracts a 13% charge from you for the privilege of scrutinizing the bill in the first place.
The “reform” introduced by this bill largely promotes the status quo by pulling more people into an expensive health care system that is managed and funded by private insurers with no countervailing government option. Given that over half of all household bankruptcies are due to health care costs, creating mandates to force people to turn over an even larger portion of their income to insurance companies will further erode household finances and exacerbate the problem of declining incomes. It’s the Wall Street bailout principle extended to the health insurance industry."
I'm too ignorant and lazy to figure out links but article can be found at...
www.rooseveltinstitute.org
So, ultimately, we have the Democrats enacting right-wing fascist legislation and the Republicans fighting against it. Perfect reminder to all of us how well our two-party system is working.
Anonymous Chuckie,
Prove I lied and tell us the truth. What concessions did the GOP offer? What they offered were extortion conditions before they would do their Constitutionally mandated job.
IF you don't tell us their concessions, YOU are the liar.
And we all know something is wrong with YOUR perceptions. Obama is not a Marxist Muslim, there never were any death panels, and the Tea Party/GOP obsession with dismantling Obmamacare by extortion is the only reason there is a shutdown.
If the Party that had the most votes for House representation, the Democrats, had control of the House the shutdown would not have happened. Therefore it is NOT the Democrats fault.
Once again, YOU are the liar.
Harley,
Democrats enacting right-wing fascist legislation and the Republicans fighting against it.
The only reason Republicans are fighting it is because it happened under Obama. Remember Romney did the same damn thing.
A healthcare system is the least fascist thing I can think of. But it does fit the pattern of a corporate/government partnership in rule.
Like it or not a socialized system has better outcomes at lower cost than a corporatized system.
Once again, a single payer medicare type program for all is the sane and compassionate system. And it is proven to have lower costs and better outcomes.
Why must we sacrifice billions of our health care dollars into CEO pockets?
"Essential" is what is required to maintain minimal function. The rest are required to provide full service.
"Anonymous" is not essential. Tom is. ;-)
"Obama is not a Marxist Muslim"
Who posted that on Tom's blog?
When was it posted?
Another great quote from the Wonderful Senator Reid (D).
“My staff has always said ‘don’t say this,’ but I’m going to say it again, because it’s so descriptive because it’s true. Leader Boehner mentioned the tourists lined up in summer, winter–long lines coming into the Capitol. In the summertime, because the high humidity and how hot it gets here, you could literally smell the tourists coming into the Capitol. And that may be descriptive, but it’s true.” 2008
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/#KEdrwySHaWUzGHJJ.99
Have you read the bill? It's only 10,535 pages long.
(CNSNews.com) – When Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.) was asked on Wednesday whether he has read all 10,535 pages of final Obamacare that the administration has so for published in the Federal Register, he first gave a response that did not address the question.When Warner was asked the question a second time, he walked away without answering.
"Obama is not a Marxist Muslim" is an example of the false perception, or brainwashing, of the Tea Cult.
Looks like Anonymous the Liar can't substantiate his false charge.
That's OK, we expect groundless and hateful accusation from the fanatic ideologues.
Better rant about Reid.
Senate Democrats blocked four resolutions to fund government programs, including paying the National Guard and opening national parks, as Republicans offered the limited measures in an attempt to win the government shutdown fight by financing popular programs and leaving those they oppose untouched.
“Unbelievably, today Senate Democrats went on record to oppose funding for National Guard and Reserve salaries, veterans’ services, lifesaving medicine and cures, and national parks and museums,” Senate Republican Conference chairman John Thune, R-S.D., said in a release following the procedural battle.
“Congress unanimously passed a bill to ensure active-duty military personnel are paid during this lapse in government funding, and it’s unclear why Senate Democrats wouldn’t pass similar measures to fund these important services,” Thune said.
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., asked for unanimous consent to pass funding for the Veterans Affairs Department and Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, requested unanimous consent to pass a bill funding the national parks and monuments. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., rejected both.
(CNSNews.com) – When asked by CNSNews.com whether he had read all 10,535 pages of final Obamacare regulations that have so far been published in the Federal Register, Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) asked in return whether it was “important” the he read them, dismissed the inquiry as a “propaganda question,” and did not ultimately anwer.
CNSNews.com: “What I was going to ask you is if you’ve read those [10,535 pages] of regulations.”
Waxman said: “Have you read them?”
CNSNews.com: “No. Have you read them?”
Waxman said: “Is it important that I read it?”
Anonymous Chuckie,
So let’s get this straight. Republicans want to dictate funding ONLY the National Guard and Reserve, Veterans Affairs Department, and national parks and monuments.
And the Dems are the ones being unreasonable?
And can you show us a Republican who read 10,535 pages of final Obamacare regulations? How about the Patriot Act?
How about you? Do you read anything at all other than Pat Robertson’s so called “news” stories?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau,_Jr.
Henry Morgenthau, Jr. was the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury during the administration of Franklin D. Roosevelt.
The Great Depression and its rampant unemployment were of primary focus for Morgenthau. And after almost two terms served by Roosevelt, Morgenthau assessed the federal effort to relieve economic conditions by proclaiming, "We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work....After eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started...and an enormous debt to boot!" Indeed, the unemployment rate for 1939 was higher than the unemployment rate for 1931, but lower than 1932.
LOL LOL LOL
WH on Number of Enrollees in Obamacare: We ‘Don’t Have that Data’
White House spokesman Jay Carney, an “essential” federal employee, can tell you how many people have visited the Obamacare website (“7 million”) but he can’t tell you how many people have enrolled in Obamacare.
Chuck Morre "Extortion is an interesting term to use on a law that when was passed, we were told 'to know what's in the bill, you need to read it'. Or how about this, 'we won, you lost, get over it'? Or 'what difference does it matter now anyway?'"
Considering the first and last are both bad faith rightwing talking points, given incomplete and out of context; a created [and false] narrative designed to make the reader reach the wrong conclusions...
I thought you were better than this, man.
Chucky "WH on Number of Enrollees in Obamacare: We ‘Don’t Have that Data’"
To be fair, web hits is far simpler than completed and approved application totals for multiple sites across multiple states, some run by DHHS and some run by state two days after enrollment starts, where a bunch of those sites, politely, are having issues with the load.
Moe and DD, my suggestion is u check the link to my name on this post as it what Ive been using for a couple of months now. Those posts at 7:59 and 8:11 are not mine. They were not posted by the same person (me) who posted for example this post.
Thank you.
Chuck Morre said...
Davey,
Why bother with a conservative version of a health care bill, Reid wont allow it to be voted on and if he did and if it passed Obama would veto it.
Just like the bills the house passed and sent to the Senate. Seen it so many times since the GOP took back the Peoples House
What amazes me is you don't like the plan but are critical of those who oppose the plan. Bipolar or schizo, not sure what I'm dealing with in you. But you can get help for your liberal rage if you just admit you are powerless to stop it and ask for help.
Sport!
10:53 PM
In a truly amazing gaffe, President Obama said Thursday that workers should not have the right to go on strike from their jobs. The comments were made in a speech at a Rockville, Md., business while attacking Republicans over the government shutdown.
Obama scolded the Republicans for refusing to do the work they were sent to Washington to do. He then compared them to workers who refused to show up for work, arguing that they would be deservedly fired. He said:
If you [Republicans] are being disrespected, it is because of that attitude you got. That you deserve to get something for doing your job. Everybody here just does their job, right? If you are working here and in the middle of the day you just stopped and said, 'You know what? I want to get something, but I don't know exactly what I'm going to get. I'm just going to stop working until I got something. I'm going to shut down the whole plant until I get something,' You'd get fired, right? Because the deal is, you've already gotten hired. You've got a job. You are getting a paycheck. And so you also are getting the pride of doing a good job and contributing to a business and looking out for your co-workers. That is what you are getting. Well, it shouldn't be any different for a member of Congress.
The comments received applause and cheers from the audience.
The president, a former constitutional law lecturer, apparently did not grasp that what he was describing was a classic organized labor strike, long a federally protected action and a cornerstone of both workers' rights and the progressive movement.
The rights were first codified into law in the 1935 National Labor Relations Act, one of most significant bills passed during President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. As the Department of Labor's official "Employee Rights under the National Labor Relations Act" poster states, employees have the right to "Strike and picket, depending on the purpose or means of the strike or the picketing."
Yup, and there are 57 States, this from the smartest President ever in the whole wide world
Davey,
What are your thoughts about this?
October 2, 2013
When the House passed legislation to defund ObamaCare but would keep the government running through mid-December, the Senate, led by Senate Majority Leader, Senator Harry Reid (D-NV) stated that they would not budge on Obamacare and the legislation was defeated.
On Monday, Dr. Harold Pease, an expert on the United States Constitution, stated that the authority in dealing with Obamacare funding belongs to the U.S. House, not the U.S. Senate and that the House is doing this all wrong.
Pease said, “Everything hinged upon funding which was given exclusively to the House of Representatives, the only power that they alone had.”
Pease went on to say, “All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills. To fund anything, in this case Obamacare, first approval is required by the House of Representatives.”
“If that does not happen taxpayer money cannot be spent. The people, through their representatives to Congress, have determined, after a three-year closer scrutiny of The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), that it does not protect the patient, is not affordable and is not even workable; hence in the interests of the vast majority of the people needs to be defunded.”
When the United States Supreme Court ruled on Obamacare in 2012, Chief Justice Roberts stance on Obamacare coincides with the intent of the U.S. Constitution, explained by Pease, and the powers between the House and Senate.
According to the U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Obamacare cannot be implemented and is not considered the law of the land, contrary to Democrat claims.
Bubba Atkinson of the Independent Journal Review, citing conservative blogger, I.M. Citizen, wrote, “Chief Justice Roberts actually ruled the mandate, relative to the commerce clause, was unconstitutional. That is how the Democrats got Obama-care going in the first place. This is critical. His ruling means Congress can’t compel American citizens to purchase anything, ever. The notion is now officially and forever, unconstitutional. As it should be.”
“Next, he stated that, because Congress doesn’t have the ability to mandate, it must, to fund Obama-care, rely on its power to tax. Therefore, the mechanism that funds Obama-care is a tax,” said Atkinson. “He struck down as unconstitutional, the Obama-care idea that the federal government can bully states into complying by yanking their existing medicaid funding. Liberals, through Obama-care, basically said to the states — “comply with Obama-care or we will stop existing funding.” Roberts ruled that is a no-no.”
When the House attached Obamacare to the legislation in funding the government, it made a mistake in doing so and the funding of Obamacare should have been separate, thereby giving the Senate no power in denying the Houses’ request to defund Obamacare.
Pease said, “House opposition to funding Obamacare would have been far more powerful if made a “stand alone” bill not attached to general funding, but it is not. “Stand alone,” having no other parts, would have left the Senate no wiggle or compromise room once it went to them, nor would there be for the Joint Conference Committee thereafter that reconciles any differences between the two houses. There would be nothing to reconcile, Obamacare is merely defunded.”
“Still, the intent of the Founding Fathers was to give the people, through their House of Representatives, the power collectively to say no to any proposed federal tax, which she is decidedly doing.”
Thanks, Sport!
Maybe the reason it’s hard to tell the difference between Chuckie and Chucky is they are both wrong so much.
Time for facts that dispute the false claims of both “Chucky” and Morganthau, both Republicans evidently. Unemployment “When we started” was 24.9% in 1933. It was 17.2% in 1939,
After FDR developed jobs programs unemployment dropped every year of his first term. Employment improved throughout all his terms except for one year. Unemployment went up in 1938 after the Dems caved to GOP pressure. Roosevelt feared an unbalanced budget and cut spending for 1937. FDR shook off the party that accused him of being an “enemy to his class” and resumed programs and policies that put America back to work.
Unemployment rates (Bureau of Labor Statistics)
1929 – 3.3
1930 – 8.9
1931 – 15.9
1932 – 23.6 FDR elected
1933 - 24.9% FDR Takes Office
1934 – 21.7%
1935- 20.1%
1936 – 17%
1937 - 14.3%
1938 – 19.0%
1939 – 17.2%
1940 – 14.6%
1941 – 9.9%
Chuckie,
Are you asking me to answer your questions again? Talk about an authoritarian who wants it both ways.
Just for you, because someone has to be the adult and do the decent thing.
Congress can’t compel American citizens to purchase anything, ever.
Correct. And they don’t compel anyone to purchase anything. But they can tax you for not... LOL!
Socialized healthcare is cheaper and has better outcomes. End of debate
Why bother with a conservative version of a health care bill
I asked for an alternative healthcare plan that is sane and compassionate. Obamacare was originated by conservatives. The liberal plan was never considered by the corporatist politicians.
Pay attention and maybe you’ll learn something.
Yes, I’m critical of ideologues who never offer solutions while opposing everything the black president does, even when it is conservative in nature.
ask for help ??? LOL!!
You won’t even answer questions that I ask. Could it be because you’re wrong so much? Nobody wants or needs your “help”.
It’s not “rage” to note your hate, falsehoods and hypocrisy, sport. I was taught to love the sinner and hate the sin.
You are being paranoid or grandiose if you think I hate you. Most probably it is projection of your hate.
You are a pathetic, willfully brainwashed cultist, deserving of sympathy more than hate. You are a tool of the Right Wing economic elites. You are working against the interests of most Americans. Your ideology is exactly that of the narrowest agenda of the greediest rich and powerful people. You can’t even pretend to deny this fact.
You support a party that is in open opposition to democracy and actively attempting to suppress voter registration and poll access. Your so called “House of the People” is run by the Party with fewer votes than the Democrats.
You support a dictatorship of a minority that chooses to extort its agenda because it lacks legislative support.
These are just the facts.
If you don’t want to be compared to a fascist then stop acting like one.
Why does the Administration use barbed wire to close the WWII memorial from being visited, but won't even talk about doing the same on our border with Mexico?
Anonymous "Why does the Administration use barbed wire to close the WWII memorial from being visited, but won't even talk about doing the same on our border with Mexico?"
Well, it doesn't do the first and does do the second*, so you're batting zero.
* …and razor concertina wire, too. And chain link. And metal. And concrete. And ditches and berms. And dogs, trucks, men, helicopters...
"A better and peaceful world is possible — a world where people and nature come before profits. That’s SOCALISM. That’s our vision. We are the Communist Party USA."
"Socialized healthcare is cheaper and has better outcomes. End of debate" (Sounds a bit like something Comrade Stalin would say)
Dave Duyba
Dave Has spoken, therefore the debate is over. How liberal, how open to different points of view is today's liberal. Don't confuse him with the facts, just fall into line and do what the leaders of the govt tell you to do.
Man, it takes a lot or arrogance to match the stupid in these easily disproven radical Right propaganda points.
And we have the commie card. Told ya that's all they got.
Thank you Chuckie Anonymous.
You offer no facts to dispute my point. The debate really is over.
You lose.
Nothing left but the commie card, right sport? LOL!
You have "Stalinist" Canada next door, and "Stalinist" Britain and "Stalinist" Europe and "Stalinist", well, in every civilized modern nation. You're in trouble.
Better fetch yer shootin iron, the commies are at your door.
Paranoid and delusional. Stay "fair and balanced" sport.
Pick the Socialistic organization of your choice,
www.sp-usa.org
www.dsausa.org/
socialistworker.org/
And then compare for yourself their positions and those found here:
www.cpusa.org/
And then you figure out the difference between them, instead of Dave doing your thinking for you.
"A better and peaceful world is possible — a world where people and nature come before profits. That’s SOCALISM. That’s our vision. We are the Communist Party USA."
"Socialized healthcare is cheaper and has better outcomes. End of debate" Dave D.
Yeah, Tom Degan! Anonymous is right! Pay no attention to costs, relative outcomes, depth and breadth of coverage, or statistics of any kind*, since the commies are for it it's bad!
* cite 1 & cite 2 & cite 3
"COMMIES, COMMIES, COMMIES! Lock 'n' Load!" LOL!
"Socialized healthcare is cheaper and has better outcomes. End of debate" Dave D.
Remarkably, Americans of all political stripes have long reserved for our veterans the purest form of socialized medicine, the vast health system operated by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs... If socialized medicine is as bad as so many on this side of the Atlantic claim, why have both political parties ruling this land deemed socialized medicine the best health system for military veterans? Or do they just not care about them?” – Health care economist Uwe Reinhardt
OK, sport. Care to “debate” that fact, or just play your commie card again? The VA is a commie plot, right? LOL!
Health-care costs have risen much faster than income in the United States over the last 50 years, rising from 5% of Gross Domestic Product in 1960 to nearly 18% today. Some of the increase in costs in the United States, as with other countries, is associated with improvements in care and longevity. Costs have risen much faster in the United States, however, because of the growing administrative burden of our private health-insurance system.
Providing universal coverage with a “single-payer” system would change many aspects of American health care. While it would raise some costs by providing access to care for those currently uninsured or under-insured, it would save much larger sums by eliminating insurance middlemen and radically simplifying payment to doctors and hospitals. - Economist - Gerald Friedman
Tell us how we save money by paying off the corporate middlemen with billions of healthcare dollars.
Betcha can’t.
The single payer argument When it comes to health care financing, there is a free lunch awaiting us – single payer is cheaper & better. The evidence base: From the OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development ) and beyond …universal coverage, with one comprehensive benefit package & truly streamlined administration, leads to higher access, greater utilization, better health outcomes, and lower costs. - Philip R. Lee Institute for Health Policy Studies
You see, this single payer system isn’t just theory. It is in place, common and measurable.
Arguments supporting middlemen getting healthcare dollars:...
Zilch.
End of debate.
PS. I do not advocate government ownership of industry. Not a commie. I also have financial investments. I am a capitalist.
But go ahead; play your commie card sport.
It’s all ya got. Bet you're a racist too. LOL!
The utter gall. Only the Koolade Kult is allowed to label others...and ask questions.
Now look for the outrage. LOL!
Pay no attention to this dear believers in the socialist way.
"Obamacare can help dead people, too.
This is apparent in Kentucky, where application forms for the state’s new Obamacare benefit exchange asks if the application is for someone who has recently died.
Question 39 on the kynect: Kentucky’s Healthcare Connection printable application form for a single person health seeking either coverage or help paying costs, states: “If you are filling out this application on behalf of a person who recently passed away, enter the deceased person’s date of death.”
Just in time for Halloween!
Hwy Moe, Nazis were for socialized health care, you ok with that?
Pick the Socialistic organization of your choice,
www.sp-usa.org
www.dsausa.org/
socialistworker.org/
And then compare for yourself their positions and those found here:
www.cpusa.org/
And then you figure out the difference between them, instead of Dave doing your thinking for you.
"A better and peaceful world is possible — a world where people and nature come before profits. That’s SOCALISM. That’s our vision. We are the Communist Party USA."
Got to love that old guy Harry,
Harry Reid Today: “We Have Negotiated Our Hearts Out” – Harry Reid Before: “We Will Not Negotiate”…
Wynton Hall
4 Oct 2013
On Thursday, the government's official Obamacare Facebook page was riddled with people expressing sticker shock over the government's high cost premiums after struggling for hours to wade through the technical failures vexing Obamacare exchanges all across the country.
"I am so disappointed," wrote one woman. "These prices are outrageous and there are huge deductibles. No one can afford this!" The comment received 169 "likes."
"There is NO WAY I can afford it," said one commenter after using the Kaiser Subsidy Calculator. "Heck right now I couldn't afford an extra 10$ [sic] a month...and oh apparently I make to [sic] much at 8.55/hour to get subsidies."
Another person shared a link found on the federal government's main Obamacare page listing premium estimates for small business employers:
The information is not very complete as I don't see anything about deductible or other detailed info, but it does given an actual price as to the "Premium." It is VERY SCARY!! For example, my insurance plan right now for my spouse and I costs $545 a month with 100% coverage after my $2500 deductible. We are both 32 years old. When I looked at this site for 80% coverage it says it will be $954.78 a month!!!! So compare my old Plan: 100% coverage for $545 a month To New Plan: 80% Coverage for $945 a month. This is only only an estimate but it is VERY Scary for me to see this kind of increase in rates and reduction in benefits!
A single mother of two said she is in school and working full-time while living "75% below the poverty level." She said she was shocked to learn she did not qualify for a healthcare subsidy. "Are you F'ing kidding me????" she wrote on the government's Obamacare Facebook page. "Where the HELL am I supposed to get $3,000 more a year to pay for this 'bronze' health insurance plan!?!??? And I DO NOT EVEN WANT INSURANCE to begin with!! This is frightening," she wrote.
Amid scores of comments expressing frustration with technical failures, one woman said she is "just amazed you could even get to the point of seeing pricing" and that she had been trying to access the system for three days to no avail.
Obamacare sticker shock will not affect millions of low-income Americans; a New York Times analysis published on Wednesday found that Obamacare "will leave out two-thirds of the poor blacks and single mothers and more than half of the low-wage workers who do not have insurance, the very kinds of people that the program was intended to help."
Obamacare will cost taxpayers an estimated $2.6 trillion over the next 10 years.
Hey, Anonymous Chuckie,
Nazis were for socialized health care, you ok with that?
Did you know Germany had socialized health care decades before the Nazis? You OK with that?
So you know about Nazis, huh? Yeah, probably not much.
I bet you think they were liberals. LOL! Your cult leaders tell you that. But really, Nazis rounded up liberals. You OK with that?
Did you know Nazis were patriotically pro-family? Yes, they promoted marriage and children for the future. You OK with that?
Did you know Nazis were pals with Big Business? They even got rid of unions, and that pesky minimum wage that Nazis and Republicans dislike so much. You OK with that?
Did you know Nazis hated college professors, teachers, liberals, real socialists, and unions? You OK with that? Yup, just like Republicans do today. Luckily we have rights, or at least more than liberals did in your good old days.
Negotiate? Republicans with Democrats? LOL!
They don't negotiate; they play demands and concessions. Yes “negotiate”, for Republicans, means demands by Republicans and concessions by Democrats.
Or am I mistaken? What Republican legislation were the Republicans offering to roll back in exchange for the dems allowing Obamacare to be dismantled?
What was it the Republicans offered as their "negotiation" for their demands? Anyone?
Demands had to be met before they would render their constitutionally required service. They demanded concessions, as a condition to doing their job. Is that negotiation?
No. This is closer to blackmail and extortion, because they don’t care about cost or consequences suffered by the American people. They are at war with our government. They don’t care who gets hurt or deprived of what is their due. They will settle for nothing less than a dictatorship by their minority.
Negotiate, my ass. It is ransom, demanded in exchange for allowing our country's government to function.
This is our government poisoned by volatile, toxic Republican Tea.
Hey, Wynton Hall. Wow. That's some fancy real journalism there. You can copy and paste any crap anybody could write. Got those numbers double checked? LOL!
Dave is right, socialized healthcare is the best, for socialists. For the rest of us, not so much!
Dave Dubya,
Why don't you go back to your censored blog where there is no free speech just like in Russia with Stalin or Cuba with Fidel and the Communists!
You OK with that?
Harry
It doesn't matter what you say to Dave, he doesn't even read your posts, he just comes back with his same old radical left with talking points.
Example, his response to post by "signed sealed and delivered".
He thinks Hall copied and pasted the post, when it was Hall who wrote it.
Then he thinks he has the large enough man parts to demand answers to his inane questions in an effect to deflect from his dangerous, radical, leftist positions.
The American citizens have always opposed Obamacare by a wide margin.
Only by tricks, chicanery and back-room deals was Obamacare able to squeak through Congress.
Remember when candidate Obama pledged all Health Care negotiations would be televised on C-SPAN? If Obama's nose grew like Pinocchio every time he lied, he would be able to smell someone farting in North Dakota. Only with the liberal disease do such promises get forgotten. Remember how the liberals repeated "Read my Lips" when Bush Sr lied?
The Cornhusker Kickback and the Louisiana Purchase were just two of the many dirty deals associated with the passage of this bill, which needed to be passed before we could “find out what’s in it.” Only with the liberal disease could a bill be rammed down the American citizens throats and through the congress "in order to find out what is in it." Any person in the House or Senate with the view a bill should be passed so that we can find out what is in it does not belong in Washington and is a disgrace to our nation and anyone who believes in democracy.
The radical lefts obsession with Corporatism and how Corporations buy political influence is always ranted about. Yet when Senators votes on ObamaCare had to be bought with large Federal grants to their states in backroom deals to change their vote for ObamaCare I hear nothing but crickets since this is considered democracy with the liberal disease.
Well now we know what’s in it: higher costs, lost coverage, full-time jobs reduced to part time, exemptions for the well-connected, a weaker economy for those of us working every day. Only with the liberal disease is this "progress".
Thank you Tom Degan for letting me voice my opposing opinion on your blog. I know there are liberal blogs where dissenting viewpoints are censored and deleted similar to the way Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez controlled their state run papers.
Mr. George Thomas,
Well said, but here's is what could happen next.
You will be called a troll, a Koch Brothers paid troll, a tea party whack job, a radical right wing nut job, a fascist, a hater of Americans/America, a hater of those not having health insurance, a follower of Limbaugh, or Beck or both, a watcher of Fox News, and a member of the NRA. Those just for starters.
Keep up the good work!
Nancy Pelosi upon taking the Speaker of the House – January 2007
“And the American people told us they expected us to work together for fiscal responsibility, with the highest ethical standards and with civility and bipartisanship. After years of historic deficits, this 110th Congress will commit itself to a higher standard: pay as you go, no new deficit spending. Our new America will provide unlimited opportunity for future generations, not burden them with mountains of debt."
Senator Barack Obama’s Senate Floor Speech on Public Debt of March 16, 2006
“And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on. Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America’s priorities.”
But now its OK to raise the debt ceiling, and spend more money that you don't have. These people are like teenagers with their first credit card. The sad fact is that the teenagers get their credit card cut in half, while the above clowns stay in power by the guaranteed votes of the slaves of their plantation who receive free stuff from the masters.
Interesting position regarding the ACA can be found at this link
nationalreview.com/article/360460/obamacares-unconstitutional-origins-andrew-mccarthy
The center of the argument is:
"the narrow Court majority held that the mammoth statute could be upheld only as an exercise of Congress’s power to tax — i.e., contrary to Obama’s conscriptive theory, it was not within Congress’s commerce power to coerce Americans, as a condition of living in this country, to purchase a commodity, including health insurance.
Obamacare could be upheld only as a tax. Not that Obamacare is necessarily a legitimate tax. To be a legitimate tax measure, Obamacare would have to have complied with all the Constitution’s conditions for the imposition of taxes.
We now know Obamacare was tax legislation. Consequently, it was undeniably a “bill for raising revenue,” for which the Constitution mandates compliance with the Origination Clause (Art. I, Sec. 7). The Clause requires that tax bills must originate in the House of Representatives. Obamacare did not.
Obamacare originated in the Senate.
Therefore, Obamacare is revenue-raising tax legislation, originated in the Senate in violation of the Constitution."
Thoughts, arguments for and against this position please. A debate on the issue would be nice.
Thank you for your input, George; I'm a First Amendment purist. Freedom of speech - IT'S THE AMERICAN WAY, BABY!!!
All the best,
Tom
Yes, Chuckie George, You will be called a troll,...etc
Only if you act like one.
And you may want to call me a commie for honestly reporting, according to the Forbes link above, most Americans don't want Obamacare repealed. This is the obsession of the radial Right.
Yes indeed.
Trolls dump copy and paste BS that have nothing to do with the topic, demand answers to questions, and never answer any in return.
So they love to call me a commie.
That must not be as bad as being called a troll. Oh, the whining and pathetic howls of injustice for being accurately described.
I'm proud that my clear logic and facts draw this commie card. It's all they can to in return. This is because they cannot answer questions and cannot offer facts, evidence or reasoning to counter my points.
Hence the commie card is all they got, right Chuckie? (He won't answer. Trolls never do.)
And I hereby thank Chuckie and all his "friends" for "their" obsession with me. Apparently "they" hate me so much it's more important for "them" to run away from my facts and reasoning, and play the commie card against lil' ol' me. I welcome that kind of "debate". I win every one of them.
Maybe their cult teaches facts and reason are "commie" stuff, too.
Just like the VA.
Right, Chuckie?
Chuckie George's Only with the liberal disease could a bill be rammed down the American citizens throats and through the congress "in order to find out what is in it." is false, surprise surprise, and he ignores the Patriot Act.
Who read all of that one?
Chuckie George STILL can't comprehend Obamacare is NOT a liberal idea. It was NOT drafted by liberals.
Must be comforting to have others tell you what to think.
Anonymous,
I'm happy to debate.
We now know Obamacare was tax legislation. Consequently, it was undeniably a “bill for raising revenue,”
Um, no. Obamacare was healthcare legislation. Honest. It was not drafted as a "bill for raising revenue". I'm afraid that is also true. In fact, if everyone bought insurance, there would be zero "revenue raising", correct? That doesn't even appear close to being a bill for raising revenue. So it's a really a healthcare bill with a tax penalty.
See the difference? Well, the Right leaning Supreme Court did.
Now feel free to call me a commie. It's all the rage of the radical Right.
Anonymous "Obamacare originated in the Senate...Thoughts, arguments for and against this position please. A debate on the issue would be nice."
It started in the House.
MOE,
Obamacare originated in the Senate.
"It was introduced in Congress in 2009 by Senate majority leader Harry Reid, who called it the “Senate health care bill” (a description still touted long afterwards on Reid’s website). Employing the chicanery that marked the legislation through and through, the Democrat-controlled Senate turned its 3,000-page mega-proposal into a Senate amendment. The Senate attached its amendment to a nondescript, uncontroversial House bill (the “Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009”) that had unanimously passed (416–0) in the lower chamber."
Who and where are you being called a commie Dave?
On Tom's blog? When was that?
You keep saying that as if you wish someone were.
the Patriot Act, which Obama keeps forgetting to repeal.
Who and where are you being called a commie Dave?
I like this one. The commie card comes out all the time, and it is clearly visible to sane people outside your bubble.
We've also seen this game before. This is where you argue nobody specifically said "Dave is a commie". However the insinuations, suggestions, and comparisons are all there. The "commie card" is the only argument the bubble cult has against my statements. There commentary is riddled with falsehoods and deceptions. See numerous instances of corrections by evidence presented outside of their bubble.
Let's have a look at some of the commie cards played here.
"left wing McCarthyism"
"All other views must be stamped out, kind like Stalin did with those who disagreed with him."
"Socialized healthcare is cheaper and has better outcomes. End of debate" Sounds a bit like something Comrade Stalin would say
"liberal blogs where dissenting viewpoints are censored and deleted similar to the way Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez controlled their state run papers."
"his dangerous, radical, leftist positions."
Bipolar or schizo, not sure what I'm dealing with in you.
(Is this as bad as being a commie? How about a troll?-DD)
And then compare for yourself their positions and those found here:
www.cpusa.org/
And then you figure out the difference between them, instead of Dave doing your thinking for you.
"A better and peaceful world is possible — a world where people and nature come before profits. That’s SOCALISM. That’s our vision. We are the Communist Party USA."
See any commie cards? How about a whole deck of commie cards?
Let me summarize your case:
"The liberal commie called me names and said I was hateful." Waahh.
Comparing liberals to Stalin really sounds just the Nazis. That's a lot of ignorance behind a lot of hate.
This is also clear to any sane person outside the radical Right bubble.
If you don't want to be compared to fascists, don't act like one.
Simple.
Oh, but you don't even know you're acting like fascists.
Ah, yes, in your bubble, you are just following your leaders. You're faithfully repeating their propaganda. And tragically, buying into the hate and insanity behind your cult beliefs that liberals are destroying America.
And these leaders are the fanatics doing their best to dictate their demands while shutting down our government. The government they openly hate, and have every intention of dismantling.
But not all of it.
Note they are not working against section 212 of the Patriot Act. Not FISA, and its secret judges, all conservatives appointed by John Roberts. It is a healthcare plan they see as tyranny. Torture, war, and a police state are what they will keep, as long as they attack public health and welfare programs.
There's your Tea Cult "Freedom". This is the goal of their "patriotism".
And God help America if they get the power to execute those who they accuse of "destroying America".
That is what fascism looks like.
And it reeks of tea and toxic koolade. The Party of Mammon demands dictatorship, nothing less. Just don't expect health care to be part of their agenda.
Dave Dubya,
Sounds like you have very thin skin.
There's hope though, at least in your last few posts you were not foaming at the mouth.
"Note they are not working against section 212 of the Patriot Act. Not FISA, and its secret judges, all conservatives appointed by John Roberts. It is a healthcare plan they see as tyranny. Torture, war, and a police state are what they will keep, as long as they attack public health and welfare programs."
You definitely are smoking some good weed!
You forgot to mention the record number of drone attacks approved by Obama, including killing of American citizens without a trial.
Harry Chuckie,
No examples cited, only accusations. Typical.
Unlike commie cards and other false accusations, facts and reason do not constitute foaming at the mouth.
Thin skin? LOL! That's YOUR projection again.
Your accusations bounce off my solid facts and reasoning, while all your groundless whining and propaganda is easily shredded. But you must ignore all that and play the ever so predictable and repetitive commie card.
Thin skin? You should be more concerned with your thick skull than my skin. Nothing gets in there that isn't GOP talking points or extremist propaganda. Not an original thought in there, and not one answer to one question.
That is the essence of a thick skull, sport.
You got anything in good faith that's issue-related and isn't about me?
Didn't think so.
drone attacks approved by Obama, including killing of American citizens without a trial.
Obviously not a concern to the fanatics who think a non-liberal healthcare program is "Tyranny".
Priorities, right?
"Your accusations bounce off my solid facts and reasoning, while all your groundless whining and propaganda is easily shredded. But you must ignore all that and play the ever so predictable and repetitive commie card."
LOL from Amerika's smartest prison guard.
The average IQ for a prison guard is about 80 which is just slightly higher than that of a mentally retarded person.
You are in an intellectually elite crowd Dave Dubya. Pat yourself on the back for your achievement.
I'm sorry that expensive Liberal Arts degree you paid for turned out to be so useless in the real world.
"Note they are not working against section 212 of the Patriot Act. Not FISA, and its secret judges, all conservatives appointed by John Roberts. It is a healthcare plan they see as tyranny. Torture, war, and a police state are what they will keep, as long as they attack public health and welfare programs."
Who is they? The Tea Party?
The Tea Party is for torture, war and a Police State? YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT!
Attention! All Tea Party members.
Announcing our protest rally against the Patriot Act and FISA.
Place: Nowhere
Time: Never
Relax, just kidding.
Forget those things. We have real oppression and tyranny to fight!
Death to the tyranny of healthcare!
Healthcare is communism. The VA is a commie healthcare program.
Canada's healthcare is Stalinist! Ve must invade Canada.
Britain's NHS ist Stalinist! Ve must invade Britain!
All of Europe is Stalinist. Ve must invade Europe!
Today ze US Congress, tomorrow ze Vorld! Sieg Heil!
In reading Dave Duyba's posts I am starting to have concern about his anger and rage issues with those he disagrees with.
Good thing his job does not require him to have a firearm, or pepper spray or any close physical contact with his customers.
Glad I never have called him a commie, nuts maybe, but not a commie.
Good thing his job does not require him to have a firearm, or pepper spray or any close physical contact with his customers.
You sure about that, Chuckie?
In reading Dave Duyba's posts
Enough about Dave Dubya! This is some sick obsession. Are you attracted to him?
Now let's get back to the Tea Party's opposition to the Patriot Act and the conservative FISA judges appointed by Roberts.
This is our three point case against real government abuse of power:
1. Um..
2. Er...
3. Ah...
There, that sums it up.
Better go back to making it all about Dave Dubya.
Anonymous "MOE, Obamacare originated in the Senate."
...as an "amendment in the nature of a substitute", which a cursory googling shows is not uncommon.
So it did start as a bill in the Senate, and as a bill regarding taxes it can only start in the House.
No, Anonymous. It was an amendment in the nature of a substitute to a bill.
In the Senate, not the House?
Yes, Anonymous, in the Senate, with an amendment in the nature of a substitute to a bill, which the Senate can do.*
* It should be noted that, at this point, clarification of the gray area; a substitution amendment that raises revenue on a bill that cuts it, hasn't hit the Supreme Court.
cite
But the Supreme Court said the ACA was a tax, correct? And the Constitution says all tax bills have to start in the House, right?
And you just said the ACA started in the Senate right?
"We now know Obamacare was tax legislation. Consequently, it was undeniably a “bill for raising revenue,” for which the Constitution mandates compliance with the Origination Clause (Art. I, Sec. 7). The Clause requires that tax bills must originate in the House of Representatives. Obamacare did not." It started as a bill in the Senate, and Harry Reid bragged about his starting it there on his web site.
So is the ACA, which will give 3O million Americans access to Govt funded health care insurance by tax dollars legal? Since it didn't start in the House like the Constitution says bills that raises revenue have to?
The Constitution doesn't say anything about a bill from the Senate that raises revenue being attached or anything else as a loop hole does it? It just says the bill has to start in the House, right?
Do I remember correctly that President Obama once taught Constitutional Law at a Harvard, before he returned to Chicago to be a Community Organizer? Do you think Prof Obama ever covered the Origination Clause (Art. I, Sec. 7) in any of his classes? Know where we could find former students and ask them?
This is scary crap man, the GOP may be totally Constitutional correct in not funding the ACA, since it is not a House originated revenue raising Bill.
Did the Koch Brothers get to Judge Roberts to make his ruling to screw it up for all of us?
Maybe the President can issue an Executive Order saying the ACA started in the House?
But the Supreme Court said the ACA was a tax, correct?
Did they say that? The ACA is a healthcare law. And the Supreme Court said it is Constitutional.
It would not even provide for a tax if everyone bought insurance. That’s not how a single revenue raising law works. Under full compliance, there would be no tax, no raising of revenue.
Thus it is primarily a healthcare law with incidental revenue.
From Wiki
The clause] has been confined to bills to levy taxes in the strict sense of the words, and has not been understood to extend to bills for other purposes, which may incidentally create revenue. No one supposes, that a bill to sell any of the public lands, or to sell public stock, is a bill to raise revenue, in the sense of the constitution.
"Did they say that? The ACA is a healthcare law. And the Supreme Court said it is Constitutional"
and then
"It would not even provide for a tax if everyone bought insurance."
You just answered your own question. It is a tax, as that was the only way it could be found Constitutional by Justice Roberts, speaking for the Majority of the Court.
Chief Justice Roberts actually ruled the mandate, relative to the commerce clause, was unconstitutional. This is critical. His ruling means Congress can’t compel States or its American citizens to purchase anything, ever. The notion is now officially and forever, unconstitutional. As it should be. Roberts realized that the Federal Govt could not pass a Bill forcing citizens to buy something.
Then Roberts said "that, because Congress doesn’t have the ability to mandate, it must, to fund ACA, rely on its power to tax. Therefore, the mechanism that funds ACA is a tax".
When the House attached ACA to legislation to fund the government, it made a mistake in doing so. The funding of ACA should have been separate, thereby giving the Senate no power in denying the Houses’ request to defund ACA. If the House is serious about not funding ACA, their current method is flawed.
If ACA is removed from the government budget, presented, and voted on as a separate bill, ACA can be defunded by the House. If that is the case, then the Senate and the President can vote yes or no and if the vote is no, then the ACA bill can sit in the House with no funding.
Next there is the issue of the Origination Clause (Art. I, Sec. 7.) of the Constitution.
Senator Reid started the ACA in the Senate. He makes that claim.
The funding of ACA is not through, as you suggested the sale of Federal property, but via a tax as the SCUSA has determined.
"It is primarily a healthcare law with incidental revenue," may be correct but the funding of that law is the issue as it relates to its origin. I am not aware of a Bill or law that is Constitutional that fits your description. Further I'm not aware of a law of any size or scope that allows the Govt to require the purchase of anything of any size for any reason. Share if you have examples.
Not sure if this example works but S.S. is a tax. Most of us, but not all of us (strangely enough like ACA) are required to pay into it. As a tax S.S. raises revenue to be spent or distributed by the Federal Govt as their law requires. S.S. correctly originated in the House in accordance with Origination Clause of the Constitution.
The original bill, from the House, on which the Senate did an amendment in the nature of a substitute was a revenue bill. I linked earlier, but some courts (but not up to the USSC) have concluded that a tax cut, like a tax raise, is still revenue.
Further I'm not aware of a law of any size or scope that allows the Govt to require the purchase of anything of any size for any reason. Share if you have examples.
You can't legally drive a car without buying insurance. Insurance is a government imposed condition for numerous other applications in our lives and businesses. We may not like it, but that's how it goes.
Dave,
The Federal Govt does not require auto insurance, nor does it tax (not today anyway) to proved auto insurance of all of us.
Not every one owns or drives a car, that is a choice we still have. Not everyone has a driver's license, as we have heard from those that claim it is voter suppression to require the showing of a drivers license to vote. I dont have to drive, therefore I am not required by my State to purchase auto insurance.
So to say the ACA is the same as auto insurance a govt requirement, is wrong.
Moe,
You said the origins of the AVA started in the Senate, Senator Reid supports your position. The ACA is a tax.
Origination Clause (Art. I, Sec. 7.) of the Constitution states all bill that deal with the raising of revenue (tax) must start in the House.
Pretty simple.
Further I'm not aware of a law of any size or scope that allows the Govt to require the purchase of anything of any size for any reason.
My statement was correct. You didn't specify only the federal government, did you? Nor did I say the feds mandated auto insurance. Governments do require insurance for more than one application.
This is one example why you are accused of not arguing in good faith.
Here's another:
So to say the ACA is the same as auto insurance a govt requirement, is wrong.
I said no such thing now, did I? I showed where government requires purchase of insurance. Just a fact, sport. I can't help it if you need to deny every fact I note. Maybe your obsession with contradicting everything I say has cancelled out all of your ability to see reality.
I'm on your side of the mandate to give corporations money. I don't like it either.
There is a better system. I talked about it. You refuse to discuss an alternative. Your hate of Obama only goes so far. Your side needs to propose an alternative.
I just think it's hilarious, the lengths conservatives go to BLAME this shutdown on Obama or Democrats, when even in a Fox news poll, Americans correctly place the blame on the GOP.
Come on Dave, get real and stop looking a way to detract from the honest discussion Moe and I are having.
Of course you meant the Federal Govt as the topic is the Federal Govt and the Federal ACA law. Don't be such a cry baby. Look how you revert immediately to your claim that I am not debating in good faith. Reenter the debate when you stop looking for ways to discredit the points of the debate, not the person you are debating.
It is not always about you.
Mozart, If you are talking about the current discussion that Moe and I are having, where have either of us blamed one Party or the other?
If your just throwing your two cents in, dually noted and have a nice day.
Chuckie,
Of course YOU meant the Federal Govt, but didn't specify. You even said "of any size and scope" for Pete's sake. If you were clear to begin with...never mind.
The quote is there. Further I'm not aware of a law of any size or scope that allows the Govt to require the purchase of anything of any size for any reason.
Regardless of your unspecified intent, my statement is correct.
But you just can't stand to let it go. Your obsession is remarkable.
Let it go, sport.
Chuck Morre "Pretty simple."
It was an amendment in the nature of a substitute to a bill.
"Come on Dave, get real and stop looking a way to detract from the honest discussion Moe and I are having."
Considering that was the fifth time I had to say "amendment in the nature of a substitute", I think you're stretching the definition of "honest discussion". Shall I repeat the rest of the points I brought up, too? Should I bring back my first comment, which while unrelated to our present talking-past-each-other remains essentially unreplied to?
But Moe, does it being that and its source the Senate exclude it from the
Origination Clause? It still was an action that if passed would raise revenue, that began in the Senate and was attached to a Bill that did originate in the House. Is that Constitutional?
I think Ive asked you more than once now for the answer to that question.
And you and I both know the govt does not require every one to have auto insurance. So the ACA is not like auto insurance, not every body is required to own it.
For heaven and all our sakes, please Congress do not fund this monster!
Via Charlotte Observer:
"Across North Carolina, thousands of people have been shocked in recent weeks to find out their health insurance plans will be canceled at the end of the year – and premiums for comparable coverage could increase sharply.
One of them is George Schwab of Charlotte, who pays $228 a month for his family’s $10,000 deductible plan from Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina.
In a Sept. 23 letter, Blue Cross notified him that his current plan doesn’t meet benefit requirements outlined in the Affordable Care Act and suggested a comparable plan for $1,208 a month – $980 more than he now pays.
“I’m 62 and retired,” Schwab said. “This creates a tremendous financial burden for our family.
“The President told the American people numerous times that… ‘If you like your coverage, you can keep it,’” Schwab said. “How can we keep it if it has been eliminated? How can we keep it if the premium has been increased 430 percent in one year?”
Schwab and others who purchase insurance individually, and not through employer-sponsored group plans, are finding that the Affordable Care Act may be unaffordable for their families."
YOU MEAN THE PRESIDENT DIDN'T TELL US THE TRUTH?
And then there's the significant parts of the article Anonymous doesn't think you should read:
“There’s good and bad in the law,” said Chris Blount, a Blue Cross agent wth Piedmont Benefits Group in Charlotte. “I think it’s bad that we can’t have as many choices as we’ve had before. But it’s not like you’re having to pay more and getting less. You’re having to pay more, and you’re getting more.”
People like Schwab may face “huge increases … because they’re having to buy lower deductibles,” Blount said. But they will benefit from having better coverage and lower out-of-pocket costs, he said.
Those who got notices about large increases should go to the insurance exchange and compare plans, Borman said. In North Carolina, Blue Cross and Coventry Health Care of the Carolinas are offering a total of 51 plans from the least expensive “bronze” model to the most expensive “platinum” plans.
“We have 26 plans on the exchange and an equal number or more off the exchange,” Borman said. “They just need to take a look and do some research about what kind of plan is appropriate.”
Adam Linker, a policy analyst at the North Carolina Health Access Coalition, said the Blue Cross letters are scaring people unnecessarily.
“What people need to do is ignore the price that’s on those letters,” Linker said. “That’s just Blue Cross trying to guess at what may be a comparable plan.
“People just need to go shop for insurance in the marketplace and find plans that are probably more comprehensive than what they had and are much less expensive than Blue Cross is saying their new price would be.”
Those who buy insurance through the exchange may also qualify for federal subsidies that can make the premiums more affordable, Linker said. The subsidies are tax credits that are available to individuals who make between $11,490 and $45,960 per year. Families of four who make between $23,550 and $94,200 can qualify for subsidies.
Consumers are able to keep the insurance they have if their policies were written before, and not changed since, the law went into effect in March 2010.
Chuck, I'm talking about WHO shut down the government and WHY. The Teabaggers shut it down so they can blackmail Obama into giving up the ACA.
It's not working, and America is watching.
Chuck Morre "But Moe, does it being that and its source the Senate exclude it from the Origination Clause?"
No, because it's an "amendment in the nature of a substitute"(*1) to a revenue bill from the House.
Would you like me to say it again, again, again?(*2)
* Seventh time. Three more and I get a free 12" sub.
* Third time in a day.
ZERO
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