Tea Partiers
"This bill is the greatest threat to freedom that I have seen in the nineteen years I have been here in Washington"John Boehner
November 5, 2009
The greatest threat to freedom in nineteen years? Oh, dear!
I derive a great deal of pleasure from doing what I do. But there are a few points of extreme unpleasantness to be sure. One of these is the fact that I am forced to spend a lot of time thinking about people like John Boehner. The greatest threat to freedom in nineteen years? Where was this asshole on September 11, 2001? Or when the Patriot Act was passed for that matter. Where was this fool in 2000 when the Supreme Court put a stop to the vote counting in the state of Florida and installed the Bush Mob in the White House? The greatest threat to freedom in nineteen years? Have another sip, Mr. Faux Tan Man.
I derive a great deal of pleasure from doing what I do. But there are a few points of extreme unpleasantness to be sure. One of these is the fact that I am forced to spend a lot of time thinking about people like John Boehner. The greatest threat to freedom in nineteen years? Where was this asshole on September 11, 2001? Or when the Patriot Act was passed for that matter. Where was this fool in 2000 when the Supreme Court put a stop to the vote counting in the state of Florida and installed the Bush Mob in the White House? The greatest threat to freedom in nineteen years? Have another sip, Mr. Faux Tan Man.
Another convention of half-witted, pissed-off and clueless white people stormed into Washington, DC yesterday determined to destroy the type of health care reform that - if it goes into effect - will surely save the lives of most of the protesters who were in attendance (or their loved ones). It was the sort of weird, indescribable spectacle that makes the train-wreck of American politics (not to mention the got-busting stupidity of so many Americans) such a perverse delight to behold these days. Let's face it: crazy people are always loads of fun to watch - and the jackasses who showed up in Washington yesterday didn't disappoint.
At least one person held up a huge sign that showed a pile of bodies, victims of the European holocaust of the thirties and forties. Above this gruesome reminder of humanity's capacity for evil were the words:
NATIONAL SOCIALIST HEALTH CARE - DACHAU, GERMANY, 1945
Isn't that sweet? That seems to be quite a popular thing to do these days - equating anything connected with this administration and this president to Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. It kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? But the highlight of the day (for my money anyway) was Congressman John Boehner. He held up a copy of what he claimed was his own personal copy of the Constitution and proceeded to quote from "it":
"We hold these truths to be self-evident - that all men are created equal."
That's not from the Constitution, Johnny. That's from the Declaration of Independence - which was written thirteen years earlier! Were we able to go back in time to 1966 - when I was in the third grade - I could have told you that then, too. When we've gotten to a point where our elected representatives can't even get basic American history right, we're in, as Harry Truman liked to say, "one hell of a fix."
"KILL THE BILL! KILL THE BILL!"
The crowd (which was invited to the event by everyone's favorite extremist poster girl, Michele Bachmann, during an appearance on FOX Noise) could have been hired form Central Casting for all anyone knows. Although some of the signs they held up were crude, homemade affairs, a number of them were professionally made and more-than-likely distributed by the politicians who planned the event. The size of the crowd was estimated by the police to be between three and four-thousand people. Examining all of the news footage I could, I did not see any African American faces among the protesters. That is not meant to imply that there were none there - I am most certain that there were a handful of token Uncle Toms placed in strategic locations throughout. There always are:
"Hee! Hee! Hee! Oh, Mistah White Folks, you sho' is sly!!!"
"I would love to have every one of your viewers join me so that we can go up and down through the halls. Find members, look at the whites of their eyes and say, 'Don't take away my heath care.'"
Michele Bachmann
October 30, 2009
"The whites of their eyes"??? As in: "Don't shoot until you see...."??? What the hell is it with this imbecilic woman and her penchant for violent language? This is the same idiot who less than a year ago said on national television that she wanted to keep people "armed and dangerous" on the subject of taxation. Nice!
What is happening (just in case you failed to notice) is that many of the far-right extremists - within Congress and without - are inciting the brainless masses to violence. Does that sound overly alarmist on my part? As Eliza Doolittle said in My Fair Lady, "Just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you wait." Given the current explosive atmosphere which certain Republican members of Congress have made possible with their irresponsible, inflammatory rhetoric, another domestic terrorist incident akin to what happened in Oklahoma City in 1994 is not only possible - it's damned-near inevitable.
When that happens - Oh, brother! - watching the Republican spin machine surge into overdrive will be quite amusing to say the least. Mark my words: there will be more-than-a-few sleepless nights at Rupert Murdoch's media corporation. Trying to pin the blame for something like that on the Liberals is going to be a tad tricky to say the least. But so brazen are these people you can be sure that they'll give it the old college try. I can see it now....
A small organization of disgruntled Birthers decide that they are going to save their beloved nation from the Big, Black, Bolshevik Bogeyman. They concoct a scheme to blow up a government building in - South Bend, Indiana; Davenport, Iowa; Goshen, NY - take your pick. They make their move just when people are arriving for work. Over one-thousand men, women and children perish in the massive explosion. All of this is done in the name of Jesus Christ, by the way. Go figure.
That night Glenn Beck will look his viewers in the eye and say:
"My friends, can't you see how the evil left wing is driving the good citizens of our beloved country CRAZY?"
The following afternoon, Rush Limbaugh will literally be foaming at the mouth - a side effect from psychopathic, righteous indignation and habitual narcotics abuse:
"I lay the carnage of yesterday's massacre at YOUR DOORSTEP, Liberals! You did this to the good people of [South Bend, Davenport, Goshen]! Their blood is on YOUR hands!"
Would something as horrible as another homicidal attack on our government by a Tim McVeigh wannabe spell certain doom for the loony right wing? More than likely. When that happens, the American people will finally have had enough - which once again proves the old adage that behind every dark cloud there is indeed a silver lining.
As Uncle Bobby Zimmerman once said in a slightly different context, a hard rain's a-gonna fall, baby.
Tom Degan
tomdegan@frontiernet.net
AFTERTHOUGHT:
I apologize for the lag between the last posting and this one. I have been in the process of moving to a new location and have been consumed by the effort. Between the years 1989 and 1996, I moved at least once a year. In 1993 I moved twice! I don't know how I found the strength to do it.
This is my first piece written from my new home - smack dab across the street from an adult book store and a tattoo parlor - a perfectly lovely location. I moved into the place and property values actually went up - that's how bad the neighborhood is! The house is very nice, though. 2590 Route 17M, Goshen, New York. Stop by sometime.
At least one person held up a huge sign that showed a pile of bodies, victims of the European holocaust of the thirties and forties. Above this gruesome reminder of humanity's capacity for evil were the words:
NATIONAL SOCIALIST HEALTH CARE - DACHAU, GERMANY, 1945
Isn't that sweet? That seems to be quite a popular thing to do these days - equating anything connected with this administration and this president to Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. It kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? But the highlight of the day (for my money anyway) was Congressman John Boehner. He held up a copy of what he claimed was his own personal copy of the Constitution and proceeded to quote from "it":
"We hold these truths to be self-evident - that all men are created equal."
That's not from the Constitution, Johnny. That's from the Declaration of Independence - which was written thirteen years earlier! Were we able to go back in time to 1966 - when I was in the third grade - I could have told you that then, too. When we've gotten to a point where our elected representatives can't even get basic American history right, we're in, as Harry Truman liked to say, "one hell of a fix."
"KILL THE BILL! KILL THE BILL!"
The crowd (which was invited to the event by everyone's favorite extremist poster girl, Michele Bachmann, during an appearance on FOX Noise) could have been hired form Central Casting for all anyone knows. Although some of the signs they held up were crude, homemade affairs, a number of them were professionally made and more-than-likely distributed by the politicians who planned the event. The size of the crowd was estimated by the police to be between three and four-thousand people. Examining all of the news footage I could, I did not see any African American faces among the protesters. That is not meant to imply that there were none there - I am most certain that there were a handful of token Uncle Toms placed in strategic locations throughout. There always are:
"Hee! Hee! Hee! Oh, Mistah White Folks, you sho' is sly!!!"
"I would love to have every one of your viewers join me so that we can go up and down through the halls. Find members, look at the whites of their eyes and say, 'Don't take away my heath care.'"
Michele Bachmann
October 30, 2009
"The whites of their eyes"??? As in: "Don't shoot until you see...."??? What the hell is it with this imbecilic woman and her penchant for violent language? This is the same idiot who less than a year ago said on national television that she wanted to keep people "armed and dangerous" on the subject of taxation. Nice!
What is happening (just in case you failed to notice) is that many of the far-right extremists - within Congress and without - are inciting the brainless masses to violence. Does that sound overly alarmist on my part? As Eliza Doolittle said in My Fair Lady, "Just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you wait." Given the current explosive atmosphere which certain Republican members of Congress have made possible with their irresponsible, inflammatory rhetoric, another domestic terrorist incident akin to what happened in Oklahoma City in 1994 is not only possible - it's damned-near inevitable.
When that happens - Oh, brother! - watching the Republican spin machine surge into overdrive will be quite amusing to say the least. Mark my words: there will be more-than-a-few sleepless nights at Rupert Murdoch's media corporation. Trying to pin the blame for something like that on the Liberals is going to be a tad tricky to say the least. But so brazen are these people you can be sure that they'll give it the old college try. I can see it now....
A small organization of disgruntled Birthers decide that they are going to save their beloved nation from the Big, Black, Bolshevik Bogeyman. They concoct a scheme to blow up a government building in - South Bend, Indiana; Davenport, Iowa; Goshen, NY - take your pick. They make their move just when people are arriving for work. Over one-thousand men, women and children perish in the massive explosion. All of this is done in the name of Jesus Christ, by the way. Go figure.
That night Glenn Beck will look his viewers in the eye and say:
"My friends, can't you see how the evil left wing is driving the good citizens of our beloved country CRAZY?"
The following afternoon, Rush Limbaugh will literally be foaming at the mouth - a side effect from psychopathic, righteous indignation and habitual narcotics abuse:
"I lay the carnage of yesterday's massacre at YOUR DOORSTEP, Liberals! You did this to the good people of [South Bend, Davenport, Goshen]! Their blood is on YOUR hands!"
Would something as horrible as another homicidal attack on our government by a Tim McVeigh wannabe spell certain doom for the loony right wing? More than likely. When that happens, the American people will finally have had enough - which once again proves the old adage that behind every dark cloud there is indeed a silver lining.
As Uncle Bobby Zimmerman once said in a slightly different context, a hard rain's a-gonna fall, baby.
Tom Degan
tomdegan@frontiernet.net
AFTERTHOUGHT:
I apologize for the lag between the last posting and this one. I have been in the process of moving to a new location and have been consumed by the effort. Between the years 1989 and 1996, I moved at least once a year. In 1993 I moved twice! I don't know how I found the strength to do it.
This is my first piece written from my new home - smack dab across the street from an adult book store and a tattoo parlor - a perfectly lovely location. I moved into the place and property values actually went up - that's how bad the neighborhood is! The house is very nice, though. 2590 Route 17M, Goshen, New York. Stop by sometime.
posted by Tom Degan @ 1:56 PM
70 comments
70 Comments:
As I watched the footage of this "pep rally" on Countdown, I wondered if it would be fruitful for sane people to peacefully "march on Washington" with placards littered with slogans like "Education Expels Ignorance" or "Healthcare for Everyone Now" or "Public Option = Cheaper Health Care for All" or (even better) "No Healthcare = Death for America"...
Would there even be a lick of media coverage of such an event?
You know, Tom, the stupidity of these people is simply unbelievable and the really amazing thing is that these so called "leaders" like Bonehead, Bachmann, Cantor and the rest do not give a rats ass about the people who elected them and who they are supposed to represent.
If I could do it without throwing up or hitting one of them, I would really like to be able to sit down with one of these turkeys and ask "What do you really want and what are you afraid of?"
Good grief. I'd heard that Boehnhead mixed up the Constitution and the Declaration, but I didn't realize he'd done it with a line as well-known as that. Astonishing.
Don't know one document from another, don't know what the Bill of Rights actually says or means, don't understand what the health reform would actually do.....for all the religious fanaticism on the right these days, I doubt most of them could even recite the Ten Commandments from memory.
A new wave of far-right terrorist violence has already begun. There was Dr. George Tiller; there have been other cases. Unfortunately you're right. The situation is very scary.
Tom Degan sez: "Another convention of half-witted, pissed-off and clueless white people stormed into Washington, DC yesterday..."
Still bringing people's skin color into the conversation whenever you can Tom? I thought it was conservatives like me who were supposed to be concerned with genetics? Must be more of that-there projection that y'all are so good at.
-smasher
Atom Smasher:
"Still bringing people's skin color into the conversation whenever you can"
Does it say nothing to you that there were no people of color, no hispanics, no asians present? If this protest was truly motivated by "concerned people" why were other races and nationalities not represented? What does that say to you?
Sure it says something to me, if it's even true. It says that you and Tom are the racists you fear. As I've mentioned before, here and on my blog. It's simple projection, nothing more.
I saw protesters. You both saw white protesters. According to all the PSAs I grew up with in the 70s, that makes you both racists.
Excellent post. Despite what they say about the "turn of the independents", I still think these tea parties and those involved serve only to alienate themselves and their message from average Americans. Lets face it-they're scary. Any composed normal person can see the undertones of violence and hate. It's not pretty and I think a lot of people see that. So really, for us liberals, this might be a good thing. Five to ten thousand angry white people can't win elections on their own.
So, JRO-
If I say I'm opposed to health care reform on ideological grounds, i.e. I don't want to increase the power or the involvement of government in my life or the lives of others; and also on economic grounds, i.e. even if I thought it was an acceptable idea we simply cannot afford it, does that make me scary? Hateful?
-smasher
As long as the good people of the 8 district of Ohio keep re-electing that prick this will continue..good luck with your new place Tom
Smasher, I'm always amazed, and curious as to why, the Right goes absolutely ape-shit concerning the cost of healthcare in this country, yet never bats a collective eye when it's compared to the malignant and obscene price we pay for defense. Healthcare's going for bargain basement pricing when an honest comparison is made. Take a peek at The Mills River Progressive's "Let's look at where our money REALLY goes..." (11/3/2009). When federal annual budget outlays are stripped to annual expenditures, less the trust funds for social security, etc., military spending accounts for an astonishing 54% of our current annual spending spree. Of course, our government always distorts this by combining trusts within their published budgets, thus showing the military spending percentage much smaller in comparison.
So, why don't you teabaggers gather your angry troops, take a walk across the 14th Street Bridge, surround the Pentagon, and protest the real bloodsucker that's taken over our nation's heart and soul. If you're truly honest with yourself, you'll make that walk. But if your disagreement is purely based upon ideological principles, you'll continue railing against a bogeyman that doesn't really exist, while the real disease that's destroying our country continues to spread.
Tom,
It is all I can do these days to force myself to watch the idiocy and fear-mongering going on "at home" due to the mere idea of a decent health care program.
I, and 10s of thousands of others, am a "medical exile." I would love to move home and live with my favorite cousins in Hoyt Lakes, Minnesota. I cannot.
In Canada I have a neurologist, a family doc, and two other medical specialists. I get my medications ($200/week) covered after I spend 2% of my annual gross income. And there are no co-pays, I've had the same doctors for over 10 years. I spoke with my neurologist on Thursday, he said he would be able to fit me in this week.
Now, what is all the BS those clowns are selling to the madding crowds at home? Somehow, Canada manages to have a better lifestyle and lives at equal, or better, income levels than the USA, is a democracy and still has a health care plan that covers everyone.
With all of that, why would I come home? To watch the crazies spin more and more lies and deceive those educated in underfunded schools or at home by fundamentalists who don't know what they believe so they get their beliefs from television?
Nope. Doesn't look like I won't be coming home, not even in the proverbial pine box. Why should I? My country doesn't care that we wander in the wilderness while they recruit our votes but do piss all for us after they have gotten them.
Canada? I guess I'll stand on guard for thee. . .
On the same day of the second biggest terrorist act on American soil since 9/11, we get the race card from liberals/communists. Imagine if the shooter had a Glenn Beck book on his nightstand instead of the Koran. I bet you liberal/communist were begging to God that this guy had a last name of Smith or Jones.
Staying on course here for a minute. Having O-Shit and that whore Pelosi throw the worst piece of legislation in this countries history without citizen participation is the ultimate slap in the face to anyone who voted O-Shit.
Quick joke for you.....why did O-Shit blow off Markels invite for the anniversary of the falling of the Berlin Wall? Because Communists don't go celebrate their failures.
Thanks Everyone! I'll be here all weekend.
Tom, good luck at you new digs man. All the best and have a great weekend!
Harry from Mass
Once again, Tom - right on the money (whoa, consider the irony in that phrase). And hey, good luck with the new digs. NewFane/Olcott Beach NY is sort of a second home - so some day there may be a knock on your door (I'll call first).
Stop by any time, Avram. My door is always open to you!
And Harry, when you refer to the "liberals/communists", are you by any chance implying that the Communists were "Liberals"??? Silly boy! My door is always open to you, too!
All the best,
Tom Degan
Imagine if the shooter had a Glenn Beck book on his nightstand instead of the Koran.
AH! Harry! I thought you were an original. That is a direct quote from Bill O'Reilly's show last night.
Now I really AM disappointed in you! Resorting to plagiarism and of such a milquetoast source. tsk tsk.
Come back from the dark side! Be original, as you used to be. . .
2 great minds think the same because Diane Sawyer on Friday morning said something along the lines of "wishing the last name of the terrorist to be Jones or Smith".
Call it what you want honey...
Now go back to doing something that you think is useful and productive for society.
That last paragraph was plagiarised straight from the bottom of my heart sweetheart.
Harry from Mass
Boehner is the male version of Palin - stupid is, stupid does, stupid looks. You're absolutely right about the right wing mouth-pieces inciting the ignorant masses to violence. What gives me hope is that they are driving conservatives out of the GOP, so in the end they will have no support base. The Dems would be wise to start courting the dienfranchised.
I don't envy your moving but I'm intrigued with the location. I have an adult store down the block and it's a very diverse area. But, the only move I'm going to make again is 6 ft. under.
Yes, Lesley, next to the adult book store is a tattoo parlor. In the building a few feet to the right of that is a bar called Cravings - not the best establishment for me given my history! I don't mind, though, the house is beautiful.
Jefferson's Guardian said...
"Smasher, I'm always amazed, and curious as to why, the Right goes absolutely ape-shit concerning the cost of healthcare in this country, yet never bats a collective eye when it's compared to the malignant and obscene price we pay for defense."
Well, in my opinion you're wrong and misguided on your first point. Conservatives aren't the ones who decided health care was in crisis - liberals and Democrats did that. We're decrying the price *of what you want to do with it*. If you really cared about pricing of a service you'd try to make it cheaper, not force everyone to buy it at the very rates you're dissatisfied with now. The current Democrat/liberal position is illogical.
As far as defense, conservatives like defense (i.e. national security) and wish we were spending more on it. Libertarians, now, they tend to want to spend less on defending other countries, and I'm pretty much on board with most of that. Simple as that.
-smasher
Understand those cravin's. Atmosphere is everything in my book.
Once again I felt compelled to quote you. It coincides with a slide show on Germany's first concentration camp on the Online NewsHour. The link is at my site ; )
What astonishes me is that the teabaggers continue to think of themselves as "grassroots." I could use a blade of their freakin' astroturf to pick leftovers out of my teeth!
They boast, "Oh but it was such a great turn-out for a non-holiday Thursday!"
The people who boarded those buses fail or refuse to understand the significance that they are simply the puppets of billionaire David Koch of Americans for Properity who PAID for 40 busloads of people to attend this rally. AFP staffers met the buses, handed out signs, talking points and ......donuts (hmm, what about coffee? Cheapies).
It's all good if it makes them feel better, I guess. Those who are involved in one of the most important and profound changes in US history - REAL health care reform - are looking after their best interests. Will teabaggers ever know that?
Who cares!
So...
I oppose the current helath care legislation because of ideological and economic reasons (listed in previous comments above).
In all your eyes, I'm crazy? Stupid? Hateful? Misguided? A pawn?
My ideology is my ideology. You may disagree with it, but I dislike the idea of govt increasing its power, which the current bill9s) will surely do. I also believe we can't afford it, as it will cost, conservatively :) , around a trillion dollars, which we currently do not have.
Now, obviously I can be disagreed with, but honestly, do I rate the labels you folks have been slinging around, simply because I disagree with you?
-smasher
"Forget Dogs and Cats. Spay/Neuter Liberals!"
Archie Bunker, Queens
I am really getting weary of the word Liberal being used in a negative way. I am especially tired of it being equated with Commie( as Harry from Mass does)/Bleeding Heart, etc. I think it's time we liberals started reclaiming the real meaning of the word. I am going to start by writing a blog on it.
Darlene....
This has been one of my major complaints for years - how we allowed the loony right wing to hijack that word and turn it into an expletive. If every law made possible by Liberals were made null and void today, tomorrow would see a revolution in this silly country.
Ditto on the liberal-as-expletive thing. I used to be a registered Republican (until I'd had enough of the criminal Cheney Administration), am now a registered Independent, moderate on many issues, conservative on others (particularly finances)...but because I believe the science that says climate change is real and I think Sarah Palin is a moron, that makes me a bleeding heart, tree-hugging pinko-commie liberal?
My opinions are pretty much where they've always been...but the right has become so extreme they've left me standing of the left, even though I haven't moved.
Kat
So I guess no one's interested in answering my questions? I answered the ones I was asked.
-smasher
I thought you were being rhetorical:
"I'm crazy? Stupid? Hateful? Misguided? A pawn?"
None of the above except maybe a tad misguided. Does that answer your question satisfactorily?
How, misguided? The bill DOES increase the power of govt. It DOES require a huge expenditure, at a time when we are in a deep, debt-driven, economic crisis.
So how are my objections on those two grounds "misguided"? Explain that to me please.
-smasher
"I don't want to increase the power or the involvement of government in my life or the lives of others..."
But you're okay with the increase in the power or the involvement of the corporations in your life or the lives of others?
Thank you for stepping in, Lineman. I've intentionally laid back, refusing to answer Smasher. Why? Because he obviously can't see the forest for the trees.
I'm tired of responding to what, by now, should be very apparent.
Thanks again!
Excellent write-up, Tom. But did you really have to blow up South Bend? ;)
My usual reaction now when I hear Bachmann speaking is stunned laughter, as in "I cannot believe this crazy bitch is a public figure." Wow.
You truly are a nutball.
"You truly are a nutball"
Dear Kyle,
Thank you so much for your contribution to "The Rant". Part of me is inclined to agree with your description of me as a "nutball". I actually quit my job so that I would be able to devote my time exclusively to this silly blog. Your point must be honestly conceded - there's got to be something decidedly "nutty" about that.
Here's the problem: when I went to my copy of Webster's Dictionary, I found out to my ultimate horror that there is no definition of the term "nutball". Indeed as I write this, the good folks at Spell Check are informing me that "nutball" is not even a proper word. Perhaps you would be gracious enough to give us your definition.
Between you and I , Kyle, I really do envy the sanity of Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh.
Peace to you, brother.
All the best,
Tom Degan
Laneman said...
"But you're okay with the increase in the power or the involvement of the corporations in your life or the lives of others?"
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but what "corporations" are you referring to, and how is their power to influence my life increasing?
Jefferson's Guardian said...
"Thank you for stepping in, Lineman. I've intentionally laid back, refusing to answer Smasher. Why? Because he obviously can't see the forest for the trees.
I'm tired of responding to what, by now, should be very apparent."
But clearly it's not apparent to me.
But I'm still curious as to whether my disagreement rates me as a pawn, or a hater, or stupid, or the other lovely epithets thrown around.
-smasher
I just posted my blog on being a liberal and I hope that Harry form Mass. reads it. I hope he thinks twice before writing or saying "liberal/communist" again. He obviously does not know what liberals have done for this country and he obviously does not know the difference between liberals and communists. And don't you dare say they are the same.
Adult book store, tattoo parlor and used car lot? Better that than Starbucks and a yoga studio.
Smasher.....I don't think you are stupid, just brainwashed like 90 % of Amerikans. You say you support the ridiculous amount of money spent on defense. Maybe if we didn't piss off so much of the world with our bullshit imperialism we wouldn't need to worry about defense. Our " defense " goes way beyond protecting our turf from invasion. We actively stick our nose where it doesn't belong and then wonder why we are hated. The way to stop terrorism is to stop the imperialism and stop interfering in other nations' affairs. We also must be much more careful in who we let in our country, our immigration policy needs overhaul. Smash that around for awhile.....
Okay EDE, thanks for answering directly.
Now, you grant that I'm not stupid, but you still think I'm brainwashed, i.e. you're still invalidating my position, not countering it. I could have a discussion about how much of our defense budget is related to our foreign policy or not, but your position about "we're asking for it" is a rational one, even though I *mostly* disagree with it.
But that doesn't speak to my original point, which is, even if we could afford it, I would still be opposed to the health care bill on ideological grounds.
Basically I'm trying to get folks to realize that reflexively labeling people that disagree with them as stupid, hateful, phobic, or brainwashed is not a very intellectually rigorous position. I believe that y'all who support the health care bill really want to move medical decisions over to the govt sphere and that you really believe it will save money on the long run, or don't care about the economic impact at all.
I disagree with you, but I believe you. Some of you should try that sometime.
-smasher
For those who complain that reform gives the government too much power over choices in our lives...
Do you support the Anti-Abortion Stupak-Pitts Amendment that was shoved into HR 3962?
Doesn't prevent abortions, darlin', just doesn't provide Federal tax dollars for them. And while it's not something I'd go out of my way to support, no, it doesn't bother me that it's in there at all, no.
-smasher
Smasher........what ideologic grounds do you have that cause you to want to deny the basic human needs of law abiding citizens who happen to be poor or unprivileged ?? This is not a situation where people are " getting something for nothing ".... health care is something that should be part of the " social contract ". Same goes for food and shelter !! As you might guess, I have a big problem with capitalism to begin with. If you want to talk economics, how about the concept of spending we the peoples' tax revenue in ways that benefit the majority of citizens and not just the wealthy ??
Well sweetheart, thank you for proving that you're okay with government - at the demand of religious nutjobs - controlling lives as long as it's something that doesn't "bother you."
btw, my comment was for smasher
How is me not wanting my tax dollars to go toward a voluntary procedure "controlling" anyone's life? Do you want any of your tax dollars to go toward me buying more guns & ammo for my collection? (and forgive me for falling back on an easy stereotype to illustrate my point).
-smasher
Smasher - typical ignorant response. You have no idea the myraid reasons why women have to seek to terminate a pregnancy. You would do the women in your life a favor by educating yourself on the topic.
Rebecca said...
"Smasher - typical ignorant response. You have no idea the myraid reasons why women have to seek to terminate a pregnancy. You would do the women in your life a favor by educating yourself on the topic."
Oh, I'm not ignorant, I just don't want to pay for any of it. I don't want my TAX dollars to pay for someone else's nose job or kidney surgery either. My insurance dollars? Sure, that's a contract I enter into when I sign up, no problemo.
But my tax dollars?
That's. Not. What. The. Federal. Government. Is. For.
And again, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm X, Y, or Z. It means I disagree. Or can I simply call YOU ignorant because you disagree with me? Is that the way you prefer it?
-smasher
Smasher....this isn't about ignorance, it's about values. I don't like seeing my tax dollars going to support the military or the DEA but I still pay more than my fair share of taxes. If the health care needed is an abortion then so be it. We don't get to pick and choose where our tax revenue is spent....that would require a true democracy not the sham government we have in Amerika.
Darlene, I stand by what I said.
Harry from Mass
EDE-
Well I don't want to get too far afield - the abortion thing is no big deal to me. I don't really care if it's part of the bill or not. I oppose the bill and its conceptualization, not just individual pieces of it.
But at least you're engaging me instead of dismissing me as hateful, bigoted, stupid, or ignorant.
-smasher
EDE sez:
"Smasher........what ideologic grounds do you have that cause you to want to deny the basic human needs of law abiding citizens who happen to be poor or unprivileged ?? "
EDE, so sorry between home and work, I missed this post.
I don't care about basic human needs as much as I care about what kind of damage to the human condition overreliance on government can and does produce.
Plus I know that *I* give more to charity when I have more to give. I suspect most people are like me in that particular way.
-smasher
To Harry from Mass, Of course you do.
First Tom Degan, thank you for commenting.
Second. While I certainly do not walk lockstep with you…what is needed in this nation today is civility. Virtual TYPING debate is perfectly fine, after all those folks at Arlington and those among us in the great nation that served made that possible.
What you type is YOUR opinion, ’tis also YOUR “truth”.
I certainly do NOT fear your words,typed NOR would I if spoken in my presence, Should you want this back and forth to be come UNcivil…keep using your oh so sly…”pinch me” terms. Debate Tom, DEBATE…stop the crap…use the mind, NOT your ideology.
El Campeador.com
John Panzarella
Gatlinburg, TN.
P.S. DAMN! No “disrespect” meant, of course.
P.P.S. Thanks for choosing NOT to use those idiotic "eye charts", for completeion/verification of comment(s).
completeion...Christ on a crutch!
completion
Smasher......I welcome the opportunity to share my ideas and learn the viewpoints of others. I guess that's part of being liberal. I find your comments about overreliance on government and contributions to charities very interesting. My philosophy is as follows: People should not look to money as the source of their motivation to progress. That has to come from PRIDE. Pride in doing the best one can in all that one does. That said we then need only TWO rules for society : 1. Share all that you have whether it be monetary wealth, knowledge, compassion, skill, intelligence or whatever. 2. Don't do anything that will hurt anyone. If everyone followed these two " rules " we would have a much better world. Acting out of PRIDE instead of GREED rids us of the need for monetary reward. All that is expected of folks is their best effort. We are not all equal in ability......our job is to collectively make things work, not to compete in a cut-throat anything goes society such as we have now. It's really pretty simple once you get passed all the bullshit !!
I have seen these Tea Parties. They are common, everyday folks who are ticked off at the government, politicians of both parties and what they see as a giveaway to interest groups. I mean in my 40 years of Life I never though I would see grandmothers protesting. I myself am angry.
Remember, the majority of Americans are moderates with only 20% classifing themselves as Liberal or "Progressive" One of these days we are going to get pissed off and fight back.
Dear John....
I agree with you. Those damned eye charts are annoying, aren't they? No disrespect taken, pal.
All the best,
Tom Degan
I agree with you. Those damned eye charts are annoying, aren't they? No disrespect taken, pal.
All the best,
Tom Degan
Boy Howdy, are they ever Tom.
Psssstt, come on over to WordPress, a tad easier and no, you don't have to dump this one, if you do. Keep 'em both.
Best back atcha' Tom.
Hey EDE-
I disagree with your philosophy but thanks for outlining it.
-smasher
I wish we didn't need for them to strike to prove how dangerous they are.
But so it goes. We can't be preemptive. Then we literally become them.
Smasher, I'm not surprised that you disagree with my philosophy. I am curious as to why you think people should not live their lives with pride in what they do instead of paranoid greed as their source of motivation ?? I also wonder why you have a problem with generosity and cooperation among human beings who in reality share common goals, the main goal being survival. Human intelligence can achieve great things if used properly. People need to lose their egoistic sense of self and replace it with the concept of us, all with common needs and fears. At the risk of sounding Buddhist...it is the desires and attachments that limit our progress as these lead to a greedy and paranoid mindset. The " right " things to do become obvious when perceived through a clear unbiased mind. Try it sometime !!!
Has anyone actually visited Atom Smashers blog? Here is a nice recent post. Talk about name calling. This "Heinlein" loving, libertarian engineer wouldn't accept any argument in support of health care reform - it's not in his ideology.
Ellis D., Esq. said...
"Smasher, I'm not surprised that you disagree with my philosophy. I am curious as to why you think people should not live their lives with pride in what they do instead of paranoid greed as their source of motivation ?? I also wonder why you have a problem with generosity and cooperation among human beings who in reality share common goals, the main goal being survival."
I'm a big booster for "pride in what they do" but I don't think a firm belief in private property and the betterment of self is the same as "paranoid greed". What's mine is mine. What's yours is yours. I want people to feel good when they give, and bad when they take. And I have no desire to lose my "self" to a group.
And anonymous, my rantpost there is my honest reaction to anyone who thinks it's a good idea to force me to buy a product or service I may not want or need. Put me in jail for not buying insurance? Screw that. And why put Heinlein in quotes? And also, I'm not an engineer, dunno how I gave that impression.
-smasher
Smasher...you already belong to a group, it is called the human race. Why are you so hung up on being able to call a something " mine " ?? The betterment of yourself has nothing to do with material possessions...that comes from within. Accumulating material possessions shows nothing other than selfish greed. " I want people to feel good when they give and bad when they take." Oh really ?? So you are certain that the day will never come when YOU need a helping hand ?? So long as folks are trying to do their best and give 100% effort toward doing their best I think they should then be provided with basic human needs. OUR needs, not MY needs or YOUR needs. The common needs should be provided by society NOT necessarily by the government. I totally agree that folks shouldn't be forced under some type of penalty to buy health insurance. That should be provided in return for one giving their best effort to do the best they can. We are not all equal in our abilities but we all share an equal right to exist and live free of government intrusions. In the long run society will do better if we all learn to share and help each other survive. Looking out for #1 might seem like a good idea in a " mine vs. yours " mindset but the social problems, inequities and injustice it causes clearly show the inadequacy of such a belief.
EDE-
Sure, I've needed help and taken some, and probably will again in the future. And I felt a little guilty about needing it and taking it.
And I agre that I'm part of a group and a society and some individualism must give way to the common good. I pay taxes and I think that some things are best done by local, state, and the federal govt.
I just don't think medicine is one of them and I resist the idea to force it in that direction for the reasons I've already stated.
Smasher.....I think there is still hope for you. Think about that group you belong to......now figure out how to get that group medical care when needed. Lawyers do " pro bono " work for the indigent. Maybe doctors should do likewise ?? Also....there is no reason to feel guilty when assisted in a need so long as you are putting out that 100% effort in life and share what you can share when you HAVE it !!!
Ellis D., Esq. said...
"Smasher.....I think there is still hope for you."
Gee, thanks. :)
" Think about that group you belong to......now figure out how to get that group medical care when needed."
Not a priority for me. If it were I would set about finding a market solution for it. Eliminate base problems that drive prices artificially high, make it easier to avoid the involvement of huge insurance beuracracies when unnecessary, make people *think* about whether they need a professional to look at every cut & scrape, and where public aid is necessary, keep the dollars local instead of sending them all the way to Washington and back, shedding pennies at every stop along the way.
"Lawyers do " pro bono " work for the indigent. Maybe doctors should do likewise ??"
If they want to, sure. I think they already do though. Free clinics and the like, vaccination drives.
"Also....there is no reason to feel guilty when assisted in a need so long as you are putting out that 100% effort in life and share what you can share when you HAVE it !!!"
I disagree. A little guilt at relying on someone else instead of oneself is healthy.
-smasher
Smasher.....we agree on more than you would think. If you are concerned that people will seek medical evaluations too readily under a " free " health care system, consider the alternative...people NOT seeking any preventative health care for fear of being perceived by greedy doctors as a " cash cow " and given unnecessary treatments and tests solely to make a profit. As to it being good to feel a little guilt when one is not self-reliant.....I would agree with you if we were on an even playing field. With the deck stacked against the " unprivileged " I don't think guilt is warranted when one hits bumps in the unpaved road. Keep your comments coming....this type of discussion benefits all of us !!
EDE-
When I mentioned not seeing a doc for every bump & bruise, I wasn't referring to what might happen under Obamacare, I am referencing current behavior. And I'm not all that concerned about even playing fields or "stacked decks". Life isn't fair and I'm not about trying to make it so.
-smasher
Gotta love the "Teabaggers":
The DC Tea Party - and how H.L. Mencken observed Democracy
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