Mr. Wilson Goes Town Hall-istic
Isn't Joe Wilson a hoot-and-a-half? I'm not referring to the Joe Wilson who was married to Valerie Plame, the CIA operative whose cover was blown by Karl Rove and company in an act of cynical (and illegal) political revenge. The Joe Wilson I refer to in this piece is the ideologically challenged congressman from South Carolina who interrupted President Obama's speech to a joint session of Congress the other night in words that will be in the first sentence of the first paragraph of his obituary:"YOU LIE!"
If this knucklehead lives to be one-hundred-and-twelve, his outburst Wednesday evening will be the only thing he will be remembered for - much like Preston Brooks, another reactionary, half-witted South Carolina congressman from a bygone era - who today is remembered for no other accomplishment except nearly beating abolitionist Senator Charles Sumner to death in that very chamber over a century-and-a-half ago. What drove the Honorable Mr. Brooks to attempt murder in that hallowed setting? It was Mr. Sumner's heroic stance against the evil institution of slavery that nearly cost him his life at the hands of a fellow lawmaker. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
David Letterman put it well: Joe Wilson did Governor Mark Sanford a great service on the night of September 9. Sanford is now only the second most embarrassing politician to hail from that nutty state.
This really is an amusing thing to behold. In case you've been having a difficult time trying to figure out what the hell is going on with Wilson in general and the Grand Old Party in particular, here are the Cliff Notes: The extreme right wing is at the moment having a collective, massive nervous breakdown. They just refuse to accept the nasty little fact that a black guy is now the most powerful human being on the face of the earth - and it is killing them. As they did ten years ago when Bill Clinton was president, their plan is to go to any and all extremes to thwart the administration of Barack Obama.
Here's what's happening, boys and girls: The "party of Abraham Lincoln" (Imagine that!) has forever been exposed as morally and ethically bankrupt, and they are now in the process of implementing their "scorched earth" policy. In other words, if they have to go down, they have every intention of bringing the rest of us down with them.
If you thought for one minute that the loony right wing had lost all the marbles they could possibly lose - OH, BROTHER! - As the late Al Jolson used tiosay, "You ain't seen nothin' yet!" It really is kind of funny - to a point. Here's the part that's not so funny, in fact it's a very ominous development indeed: Wilson and his compatriots within the vast right wing conspiracy are urging on the less enlightened of their constituencies into a violent fury; a rage born of lies and propaganda.
Do you remember what it was that Barack Obama said that caused Wilson's wrath? The president was patiently trying to explain to the country that his proposed health care bill would not cover the treatment of illegal immigrants. It wasn't a lie; it was the truth. The bill does not cover those in this country illegally. But - politically speaking - that inarguable fact does not work very well for Joe Wilson. It is essential that his constituents believe that "Obamacare" is merely a taxpayer-funded Christmas gift to dark-skinned people.
There are certain truths we need to come to terms with about the state of South Carolina and the people there who identify themselves Republicans. In order to do that we need to turn the old clock back nine years.
Early in the 2000 GOP presidential campaign, John McCain gave George W. Bush a serious and unexpected thrashing in the New Hampshire primaries. When the Bush Mob arrived in South Carolina the following week, they knew they had to take drastic measures if they were survive to the convention later in the summer. So they raised the issue that has been a sure bet hit in that state since Reconstruction: Race. It works every time down there. Go figure.
The Bush campaign initiated a phony "telephone poll" which asked the musical question:
"How would you react if you were to find out that Senator McCain fathered an out-of-wedlock child with a black prostitute?"
It worked. McCain, who had arrived in the state with a decided lead in the polls, was soundly defeated. But for the stupidity of the Republican voters of South Carolina, this country might have been spared eight years of the worst administration in American history. How's that for irony?
This is all about the underlying, hideous factor of the racism that is so deeply ingrained in the American character. The attempt to portray this president (Of all people!) as a socialistic, left wing extremist doesn't even pass the giggle test for people who have bothered to pay attention to their times and their history. Let's face it - Franklin D. Roosevelt, he ain't! They can't obstruct his agenda with a manufactured scandal regarding his personal life, as they did with Bill Clinton. eleven years ago. Their only hope is for enough of the American people to become really frightened by the Big, Bad Negro Commie. An ironic description when one takes into consideration how boringly moderate Obama really is.
Think about this: In the last presidential campaign only one of the nominees of the two major political parties was born in the United States - Barack Obama - John McCain was born in Panama. Do you find it as revealing as I do that it was the black guy had his citizenship called into question? How much more proof do we need of the overt racism that is inherent in that party - or in our own country for that matter? Honestly, this isn't rocket science, folks!
Joe Wilson and the nincompoops on the far right have opened a Pandora's Box that may very well prove difficult to close. What they are now doing - consciously or unconsciously - is prompting their brain-dead masses toward violence and intimidation. And let's not forget the untidy little truism that a lot of these folks are armed and dangerous. Who can forget the asshole who showed up outside one of the president's Town Hall meetings in New Hampshire last month with a gun strapped to his leg? My biggest worry is that that little incident is merely a small illustration of worst things to come.
Listen, I really hate to be the bearer of bad tidings here, I really do. But if you can't foresee some kind of Timothy McVeigh-style domestic incident somewhere down the pike, you're a hell of a lot more optimistic than I am. Also, if you are not seriously alarmed by what is now happening to our beloved country, you're not paying attention.
And now Glenn Beck is all set to become the Martin Loony King of the Far Right with his stupid March on Washington today.
Isn't life interesting?
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
tomdegan@frontiernet.net
posted by Tom Degan @ 6:39 AM
98 comments
98 Comments:
Tom great post! I talked about racism too but not written like this! Its a scary time for our country and funny how the wingnuts blame the fall on the left while they spew hate and they intice violence, all because we have a beautiful black family in the White House! Oh But my commentors deny that part, they claim it's his policies! Yea right, we know the truth...
Yeah, Sue, it's a case, I believe, of a bunch of lunatics with a serious case of denial. Every day I say a silent prayer that the president be protected from these assholes.
Seriously, did you ever, in your wildest dreams, ever think that things would get this weird in the United Sates of America?
And it makes me wonder....
Tom Degan
you go boy! it is amazing how little we seem to have learned from the past sometimes. Abraham Lincoln, John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr. Why do we fear those who try to do us the most good? People of peace and change shot down in their prime - and so it goes. . .those that do nothing for us, such as Nixon gets off with a pardon. what's the deal america? Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
People need to wake up and realize that the changes Obama proposes have been long overdue here and it is why we have a Federal Government. Change simply doesn't happen if left to the states...case in point, slavery, desegregation. I believe in a strong union, it's what these people get elected to do. I wish as a country we could collectively do away with the fear and the hate that keep us from being all it was meant to be. Let us never forget that we are made up of "your tired, your poor, those yearning to be free".
carolyn K.
YOU seem to be the one obsessed with the presidents race. It's funny how many progressives explain any opposition to Obama's policies as nothing more than racism. That is a ridiculous claim that is very offensive to millions of Americans. It is also funny how when George W. Bush was president opposition to him and his policies was patriotic and American, but now opposition to Obama is just racism and lack of education. Your arrogance is appalling. You have created a Straw Man to oppose, and by doing so ignore the real concrens of millions. That will be your parties' downfall in 2010.
Anonymous, why should anyone take your opinions seriously when you don't have the guts to sign your name?
Apparently when white people disgreee with a black president's policies, they are automatically racists. But black people who disagreed with Bush's policies were automatically ....what?
You and that Garafolo nutcase both have twisted, sick thought processes.
Your candidate has not been questioned about his credentials because of overt racist bias. He has been questioned because he has produced NOTHING from his past; actual birth certificate, college transcripts, college thesis. his claims of transparency are bogus.
Incidentally, you forgot to mention the BLACK protestor outside a Phoenix town hall meeting that was carrying two guns or the fact that MSNBC deliberately obscured his color so they could claim it was angry armed white protestors.
By the way, here's the link to the non-partisan Congressional Research Service report that concludes that, under the current version of H.R. 3200, illegals can be covered. Obama lied...or he didn't read the bill.
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/CRS_Report_on_HR3200.pdf?docID=3441
Nice thoughts, Carolyn! Keep 'em coming, kid!
Anonymous....
First of all, thank you for contributing to the debate. You seem like a smart person so let me ask you this question:
What could the possible motivation of the so-called "Birther Movement" have been if not the president's race? It was established beyond all doubt that Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 5, 1961. They never made this fuss about McCain - who, by the way, was born in Panama. What other motivation could they possibly have had? Why are all these Hard Right congresspersons egging them on?
I await your answer.
Secondly. The proposed health care bill would, in fact, cover illegals in case of a catastrophic emergency, but not as a matter of routine. Certainly not to the degree a citizen would be treated.
I'm sure you would agree with me that we ought not let a human being bleed to death just because he or she was not born on US territory. As a Christian, I have no problem with that. Do you? I would venture to guess - regardless of your religion - that you do not.
All the best,
Tom Degan
http://tinyurl.com/n8obqr
Anonymous,
Illegal immigrants will not be allowed to buy insurance from the 'exchange'. They will still receive emergency care if they show up at an ER, thereby insuring taxpayers continue footing the bill to the tune of $250 million per year. Perhaps you could explain why and/or how this will be better for America.
Thanks, Tom, for your visit and comment at Politics Plus. I have added you to my blog roll. I fully agree that racism is a driving force in the Republican mind set. If the tin-foil hat set, which sadly has become dominant in the once-great Republican party, keeps stirring up hatred in this manner, the end will be violence.
See:
http://wodexiaoshijie.blogspot.com/2009/09/you-lie.html
Ralph Lake
KD
"Illegal immigrants will not be allowed to buy insurance from the 'exchange'. They will still receive emergency care if they show up at an ER, thereby insuring taxpayers continue footing the bill to the tune of $250 million per year. Perhaps you could explain why and/or how this will be better for America."
That's easy. It will buy good will for America, something America needs badly. Good will saves money in the long run because it makes friends not enemies. Enemies cost much more than friends.
Tom is too young to remember when the John Birch Society declared that Dwight Eisenhower was a "conscious agent" of the Communist Party. And I'm too young to remember the same kind of hatred and slander we're hearing now when it was aimed at Roosevelt. I did see, however, in a collection of New Yorker cartoons, a 'toon from about 1935/6 that showed an elderly gent in a large oak paneled room with a blazing fire in a fireplace large enough to warm Henry VIII, and through the window you can see the snow falling. The window is open a bit, and some of his rich mink clad friends are calling out to him: "Come with us. We going down to the Criterion [a movie house in Times Square that specialized in newsreels] to boo Roosevelt." There's no trash quite as loathsome as rich trash.
In 2003, Wilson voted to provide federal funds for illegal immigrants’ healthcare. The vote came on the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003, which contained Sec. 1011 authorizing $250,000 annually between 2003 and 2008 for government reimbursements to hospitals who provide treatment for uninsured illegal immigrants. The program has been extended through 2009 and there is currently a bipartisan bill in Congress to make it permanent. The program has been extended through 2009 and there is currently a bipartisan bill in Congress to make it permanent.
How ignorant can you be? John McCain was born at Coco Solo Naval Air Station. Are you suggesting that he is not American because he was born on a military base in Panama?
Gary Kreep of the United States Justice Foundation has released the results of their investigation of Obama's campaign spending. This study estimates that Obama has spent upwards of $950,000 in campaign funds in the past year with eleven law firms in 12 states for legal resources to block disclosure of any of his personal records. Why?
Anonymous....
Please, are you even reading what I have written? No one is saying that John McCain is anything less than a one-hundred percent American. The point I am making is that he was not born in the United States of America and yet no one on the Left - not me, not anyone - was foolish enough to question his citizenship. When you have a moment or two, read what I have written. Forgive me for pointing this out, but your interpretations are just a tad limited in scope. Look at the big picture, my friend.
Sincerely,
Tom Degan
Anonymous, please give me a break. Obama has said, and all the rest of we bleeding heart liberals know, that the illegals are being treated at the emergency rooms right now at taxpayer expense. So what is the beef with that continuing after reform? If they have Swine Flu and are not treated, how many of us with insurance will be infected from the untreated? It's okay for them to work in slaughter houses as sub standard wages so someone can have his T-bone steak, but - God forbid- that they should have medical care if they get sick.
Where in God's name is the humanity in this lunatic fringe?
I live in Arizona and I saw the photo of the WHITE man with guns strapped to his leg and an assault weapon over his shoulder. Where in the hell do you get your crazy information? He was probably a nutcase like Timothy McVeigh. White on the outside and yellow on the inside.
John McCain's Natural Born status was scrutinized by his colleagues in the Senate, even Obama participated and signed the resolution that John McCain was eligible to run for POTUS.
IF and Only If Obama were a Naturalized Citizen, he would have already issued his birth certificate ( Not the certificate of Live Birth which is not even accepted for a passport as proof of Citizenship ), rather than spend millions defending the variety of law suits.
GW Bush and John McCain had no problem sharing their collegiate transcripts, why did Obama put his under seal with a Presidential declaration during his first hours in office ?
The 'race card' is nothing other than a display of the bloggers shallow intellect. His path of reasoning would conclude that I must be racist because I think that OJ was guilty of murder, or Michael Jackson molested children!!!
Tom Degan's question: What could the possible motivation of the so-called "Birther Movement" have been if not the president's race? It was established beyond all doubt that Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 5, 1961. They never made this fuss about McCain - who, by the way, was born in Panama. What other motivation could they possibly have had? Why are all these Hard Right congresspersons egging them on?"
Are you kidding? What motivation did people have to dig into Joe the Plumber's background or research what make of cars John and Cindy McCain actually owned or hack into Sarah Palin's email account or look into Thomas Eagleton's psychiatric history...to discredit every one of them, with no racial components at all. Because of the less-than-forthcoming manner in which Obama, who claims to be the "transparency President," has buried his college transcript & thesis, refused to release his personal health records, his law records or his correspondence as an Illinois Senator, would certainly lead opponents (political opponents, not racist opponents) to wonder why he doesn't just produce the long form birth certificate from Hawaii, rather than a short form which some agencies don't recognize as valid. It begs the question, "What is he hiding all this for?" I'm not saying I'm a birther, just pointing out that the motivation has nothing to do with race but everything to do with discrediting a political opponent.
Having honed his political prowess in Chicago, Obama should understand better than most the lengths to which people will go and the tenacity they will apply in order to bring down someone with whom they vehemently disagree. By hiding things, he has provided his detactors with the grist, so he (and you) shouldn't be surprised when his opponents continue grinding it.
Darlene, you have to stop watching MSNBC for your news. Here is a link with PHOTO of the BLACK guy toting an assault rifle and a pistol outside the Presidential speech in Phoenix. MSNBC deliberately obscured his race in order to claim an armed white crowed.
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/msnbc-turns-black-man-gun-obama-rally-white-man
Anonymous, put a lid on it. Not only are you ignorant but you are becoming tiresome and boring.
Tom,
The plain truth,so many Americans are afraid of the dark. It is sad,but true,however the real deal is we need health care for all, and stop the bleeding. Why is it that one insurance company paid 2800 for my upper GI test and the guy next to me his insurance company paid 5000. Oh that's right he got a sticker and a lollipop, bummer.
PMS
KD: "They will still receive emergency care if they show up at an ER, thereby insuring taxpayers continue footing the bill to the tune of $250 million per year. Perhaps you could explain why and/or how this will be better for America."
In the first place, this bill is about PROVIDING care for American citizens, and NOT about DENYING care to illegal immigrants. That is a completely separate issue and should be addressed by a separate bill.
In the second place:
From West' Law Encyclopedia:
"Owing to the high cost of emergency room care, many private hospitals in the early 1980s began refusing to admit indigent patients and instead had them transferred to emergency rooms at municipal or county hospitals.
"This practice, called patient dumping, has since been prohibited by various state statutes, and also by Congress as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 (Public Law No. 99-272), in a section titled Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) (§ 9121(b), codified at 42 U.S.C.A. § 1395dd).
"Under EMTALA hospitals that receive federal assistance, maintain charitable nonprofit tax status, or participate in Medicare are prevented from denying emergency treatment based solely on an individual's inability to pay. EMTALA created private enforcement actions (lawsuits by individuals) and civil penalties (fines) for hospitals that violate its provisions. Patients who must receive medical treatment include people whose health is in "serious jeopardy" and pregnant women in active labor. "
In other words, private hospitals are NOT FORCED to treat illegal immigrants by federal law UNLESS they accept federal funds, OR STATE LAW compels them to.
And I have to ask: Did Republicans demand proof of citizenship when this was passed? If not, why? This bill was introduced by Congressman Pete Stark (D) but was signed into law by Saint Ronald Reagan himself....?
Anon: "Obama lied...or he didn't read the bill.
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/CRS_Report_on_HR3200.pdf?docID=3441"
No, Anon, either YOU are lying or YOU didn't read the bill. Excerpted from the document you listed above:
"To be eligible for the credits under §242 of H.R. 3200, individuals must be lawfully present in a state in the United States, but generally not in the United States temporarily (i.e., nonimmigrants). Nonimmigrants—that is, foreign nationals who are admitted to the United States for a specified period of time and a specific purpose—are “lawfully present,” but most, with exceptions noted below, would be ineligible for the credits under H.R. 3200. The exceptions for nonimmigrants who could obtain credits under H.R. 3200 would be trafficking victims, crime victims, fiancées of U.S. citizens, and those who have had applications for legal permanent
residence (LPR) status pending for three years; these individuals are likely to become LPRs (i.e.,
immigrants) and remain in the United States permanently. Furthermore, §246 would bar
unauthorized aliens from receiving any premium or cost-sharing credit.
"Notably, many categories of nonimmigrants in the United States who have work authorization
(i.e., temporary workers) would meet the definition of a resident alien, and as a result would be
required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance. Nonetheless, many of these aliens would be
ineligible for the credits under the bill. For example, professional specialty workers (H-1B) are admitted to the United States for up to three years, and can stay for a maximum of six years. Thus, in general, these aliens would be considered resident aliens under the I.R.C. and would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance, but would be ineligible for the credits under the bill because they are nonimmigrants.
Too bad so many right-wingers are bluffing using the propaganda of their leaders....
And one more paragraph from Anon's source..
"Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status, the prohibitions on certain noncitizens e.g, nonimmigrants and unauthorized aliens) receiving the credits may not be enforced. However, others note that under §142(a)(3) of the bill, it is the responsibility of the Health Choices Commissioner (Commissioner) to administer the “individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of eligibility for such credits.” Thus, it appears, absent of a provision in the bill specifying the verification procedure, that the Commissioner would be responsible for determining a mechanism to verify the eligibility of noncitizens for the credits.
(Yet another) Anon coward said: "MSNBC deliberately obscured his race in order to claim an armed white crowed."
Nope. The picture MSNBC showed was of the armed black man. However, there were many more white people carrying guns -- including Ernest Hancock, the person who staged the "gun show" at Obama's address in Phoenix. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-DUZ08yM0w)
Contessa Brewer's live commentary quoting from a FOX news report) "...but also there are questions about whether this has racial overtones. I mean, here you have a man of color in the presidency and white people showing up with guns strapped to their waists or to their legs."
As you can see, she did NOT say "a white person".
Now, why would Contessa refer to "white people" with guns strapped to their legs while showing a single "black" man? You (and Fox news) choose to assume she was deliberately trying to deceive people, by implying that the only armed person in attendance was black, when both the police AND Ernest Hancock admitted that was not true.
Ernest Hancock, BTW, has a website defending a right-wing militia group who were arrested for stockpiling automatic weapons and explosives.... (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/ernest_hancock_viper_militia_gun_obama_event.php)
I think it's funny that people were aloud to "boo" George Bush, but with the current president or should I say the second coming of christ no one is to disagree with him or they are considered unpatriotic!! Just think if you were to exercise your freedom of speech as you did with the Bush administration and put an Impeach Obama magnet on your car you would be considered a Racist!!! Open you eyes and get rid of the Obama superstar status and see what he and his administration is trying to do to this country! I love the fact that reverse discrimination is acceptable today. The czars, the comments and it's totally acceptable correct????? Wake up please!!! I would give my right arm to have Hillary as president at this point.
All that being said, it's time for me to piss off the left-wing.
Personally, I believe that the U.S. should send (and enforce) a clear message around the world that "if you enter our country illegally, you'd better bring your own doctors and medical staff, because you will NOT receive medical care here unless you can pay for it....CASH!"
Why do I believe that? The simplest explanations I can offer are lessons I've learned through life experience: (1.) Never impose rules that you won't enforce! and, (2.) All good deeds will eventually be punished -- unless you PREVENT the punishment before you do the good deed!
I can give many examples of how opposite philosophies have killed good programs, but I'll leave that for later, and instead ask...
Canada, Europe -- all the places that American left-wingers support as examples we should admire... Do YOU allow illegal immigrants to get government-funded treatment without proof of citizenship? I can't find any quick answers to this, so I'd appreciate answers from those who live in those places. How do your countries handle this?
Thanks!
Another Anonymous coward: "but with the current president ...no one is to disagree with him or they are considered unpatriotic!!"
You mean Bush and Cheney!? They're gone now. You been living in a time capsule?
Another Anonymous Coward: "I love the fact that reverse discrimination is acceptable today. The czars, the comments and it's totally acceptable correct????? Wake up please!!! I would give my right arm to have Hillary as president at this point."
This sounds familiar -- Is that YOU, wmdkent?
Who ever you think this is.... it is not! This is my first time leaving a comment on here, and as far as the Bush, Cheney comment...it was the ever so tactful Joe Biden who used that term. What capsule are you living in? A coward no however, since the left hand, bleeding heart, blinded by the light of B.S. are so determined to destroy anyone who has a different opinion then they do I for protection of my family and my struggling business would rather remain anonymous. How sad I feel I can not openly speak my mind without putting my hard earned lively-hood at stake!
One Ronin asserts: "The picture MSNBC showed was of the armed black man."
The video that was the backdrop of Contessa Brewer's racist comment about white people showing up with guns showed the assault rifle and pistol being carried by the black man but was edited so that viewers could not tell the race of the person carrying the weapons.
And the issue of whether undocumented noncitizens would receive credits (payments) is different than the issue of whether they are eligible to be covered through the Health Insurance Exchange. In the first instance, No. In the second, yes.
From my blog:
You lie
I live in a conservative country with a conservative head of state. The provincial government goes by the name of liberal but was cobbled together out of a dead conservative party that had become the laughing stock of the province. It continues to win elections.
South of the border, however, there is a brand of conservatism that baffles Canadians. It doubtless even baffles conservative Canadians. Canada is minor player in world affairs. A back water with not much to distinguish it on the world political stage. We're an odd, self-conscious people who at once hold everything American in contempt and in awe. We look south and are amazed and envious of that American self-assuredness and yet we are suspicious of it and we are quick to mock it. When Americans hate us, as is the fashion from time to time, we are by turns wounded and defensive. When abroad we are quick to point out that we are not Americans. It's the one moment where we feel our Canadianness but even then it's defined negatively.
The health care debate that rages in the States these days has many of us puzzled. Perhaps we're too bland a people for so much outrage. Perhaps we are so "socialized" that we don't know when we're being led to the slaughter. Perhaps we too have Death Panels. Or perhaps, our blend of capitalism (many Americans cannot accept that we are a capitalist country) and government assistance (dare we call this socialism?) is simply the saner path.
I'm 62. Four years ago after returning from a holiday in Spain, my heart began to act up. I was having episodes of syncope (passing out--though in my case I never completely lost consciousness). We returned from Spain on May 24th when the episodes started and by May 26th I was fitted with a pacemaker--American designed and manufactured (so I believe). The cost of the device in theory was $5,000. The surgery would have been something similar though perhaps double that figure. I was in the hospital for three or four days. All of this cost me nothing. I repeat: nothing. Not only that, but in five to ten years and for a similar period to the end of my life I will have to have the device replaced. Assuming the five year period for battery life and twenty more years of life that means another $15,000 for the device and as much as $30,000 for the surgery. Again none of this will cost me anything. Many Americans have to dig into (and wipe out) their savings. Many lose their homes.
Why are Americans so poorly served on such a crucial issue? I suspect someone is lying to them but I won't point any fingers.
Sorry. One more point. You are not covered for health insurance in Canada if you are in the country illegally. You need what we call "A Care Card". You do not have to be employed however. As in the US you would be treated as an illegal if your condition warranted immediate treatment. You would then be billed. If, however, some illegal aliens were not billed for compassionate reasons, I don't think anyone would be greatly upset. Canada like the US is a rich country and can afford to be generous.
Tom, You go boy! You're ok for a yankee.lol I'm a liberal from Tn. who grew up in the middle of the civil rights era and joined the viet nam conflict. I've seen a lot of things happen in America, but nothing comparable to the ignorance I see before my eyes. The right wing seems to want another civil war. I may be liberal, but I'm not a pacifist. If they think all liberals are a bunch of sissys, they are in for a big surprise. I've never bad mouthed a president. It goes against my beliefs as a true American. I've never seen a(white)president catch as much flak as Mr. Obama has. Only 9 months in office and the wing nuts think he should have already cured the plague. I am white, but I know racism. Most of my childhood I attended a predominantly black school. During the civil rights movement. These nuts are in denial. If one of them does harm to my commander-in-chief, there will be more blood. I was a boy when JFK was killed and it was a terrible time. Most of the nuts are not old enough to remember what a good president he was. I hope they wake up and stop the madness before it's too late. That first shot cannot be undone.
It's because he's trying to help the working man(like me)is the reason some of them are hating on him. The republicans have never wanted us to prosper. Thanks for the rant.
Rasplanet:
"I may be liberal, but I'm not a pacifist. If they think all liberals are a bunch of sissys, they are in for a big surprise. I've never bad mouthed a president. It goes against my beliefs as a true American."
Glad to hear that someone else feels that way. We could be "blood brothers".
Another anonymous coward: "Who ever you think this is.... it is not! This is my first time leaving a comment on here, and as far as the Bush, Cheney comment...it was the ever so tactful Joe Biden who used that term."
Sorry! Mistaken identity! ALL "anonymous" commenters look the same to me!
If Biden used the same term, he was just copying Bush and Cheney. Your "gods" set the standards... he's just following their leadership....
ralphlake:
Am I correct in understanding that Canada will "foot the medical tab" for illegals as the U.S. does?
Not judging... just want to be sure I understand correctly for potential future discussion.
ralphlake:
"We're an odd, self-conscious people who at once hold everything American in contempt and in awe. We look south and are amazed and envious of that American self-assuredness and yet we are suspicious of it and we are quick to mock it. When Americans hate us, as is the fashion from time to time, we are by turns wounded and defensive. When abroad we are quick to point out that we are not Americans. It's the one moment where we feel our Canadianness but even then it's defined negatively."
I once heard a comment that being a Canadian was like "sleeping in a bed with an elephant." (the U.S.) I kind of understood what that meant, but your above description really drives home the reality. You (all of you) are not in a easy position...
Final to whichever anonymous coard is posting it:
"And the issue of whether undocumented noncitizens would receive credits (payments) is different than the issue of whether they are eligible to be covered through the Health Insurance Exchange. In the first instance, No. In the second, yes."
Yes,they would be eligible in the exchange, but no, they would receive no federal subsidy. They would have to pay full commercial price. Read it and weep. (or lie.)
One Ronin
Re: illegal aliens and health insurance. This is from the B.C. government site:
Who is Eligible?
An individual must be a resident of B.C. in order to qualify for medical coverage under MSP. A resident is a person who meets all of the following conditions:
must be a citizen of Canada or be lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence;
must make his or her home in B.C.;
must be physically present in B.C. at least 6 months in a calendar year; and
dependents of MSP beneficiaries are eligible for coverage if they are residents of B.C.
This would not only eliminate illegal aliens but residents from other provinces. They, however, would have coverage from their provinces which would be valid for several months (3 I believe) while "abroad".
On being Canadian:
Yes we are sometime worried about the elephant rolling over on us. Many of have jobs however because of the elephant--we sell you a lot of stuff and engage in a lot of two way trade.
Yours is the great experience, however--the culture of the world really. All eyes are focused in your direction. Our talent flocks there too. Don't forget we gave you Celine Dion, William Shatner and Pamela Anderson.
Actually, this is a tedious Canadian game. We play it to boost our spirits. Oh Yeah and Mike Myers!
Ralph
ralphlake....
And let's not forget the late, great Peter Jennings! I am about to start reading an oral history of his life.
By the way, love your postings.
All the best,
Tom Degan
Hi Tom!
It is wonderful to meet another person who has found it necessary to educate the willfully ignorant American public about the realities of America's social and political inequalities!
You know the irony of this whole "public options in healthcare is socialism" apoplectic fit some Americans are having is that their predecessors used the same rhetoric to argue against Medicare and Social Security - and what politician would DARE to propose ending those programs now?
Loved your post and thanks for your comment at A World Of Progress' "Fearless History." I hope we'll see you a lot there.
Seriously, what is wrong with our country? Why are the Right so scared and why haven't they been called out for the panic they have stirred with their lies?? Why are the Democrats so silent? These are questions I ask myself alot lately.
One question we should all ask ourselves is what can we do? Write a letter? Make a call? Hell, I don't know but seems like time is a-wasting.
I do believe the time for action is long overdue, and it looks like its going to be up to us to make a diffence.
Albert Einstein once said "The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm, but because of those who look at it without doing anything"
Andrea
I love the liberals they get all bent out of shape when one man speaks his mind. All he did was say what the majority of America is thinking, it has nothing to do with racism and you liberals want to believe. But keep up the whining it has been very successful.
Rep. Joe Wilson's campaign says his fundraising has broken $1 million -- and surpassed that of his Democratic rival, Rob Miller -- since his outburst of "You lie!" during President Obama's
Hey Tom - bet U haven't read the Healthcare Bill &just trust all that comes out of Obama's mouth or his fabricators. Wilson expressed an opinion & U come unglued. Only looney here is ur writing. Not like when a Rep was in Office, the Dumacrats didn't try to destroy them. Hypocrites. There's some facts from a Constitutional Attorney that DID read the thing, & it DOES cover illegals. U Lefties are zombies & can't think for yourselves. You've all been hypnotized by that Talking Head. Your comments are that YOU are the racist. We could care less what color Obama is. You Lefties with a Guilt-trip keep bringing this up, otherwise we would never even notice what color he is. It's all about his fabrications with us ¬hing more. He thinks just b/c he says his speechwriter teleprompter performances, the public is so stupid they'll believe anythg he says. I will have to add the Attorney's synopsis in a separate comment, since your box limits characters.
Here's your backup Attorney synopsis. Part 1.
The Truth about the Health Care Bills -
Michael Connelly, Ret. Constitutional Attorney
08.24.09
Well, I have done it! I have read the entire text of proposed House Bill 3200: The Affordable Health Care Choices Act of 2009. I studied it with particular emphasis from my area of expertise, constitutional law. I was frankly concerned that parts of the proposed law that were being discussed might be unconstitutional. What I found was far worse than what I had heard or expected.
To begin with, much of what has been said about the law and its implications is in fact true, despite what the Democrats and the media are saying. The law does provide for rationing of health care, particularly where senior citizens and other classes of citizens are involved, free health care for illegal immigrants, free abortion services, and probably forced participation in abortions by members of the medical profession.
Here's your Attorney's synopsis Part 2.
The Bill will also eventually force private insurance companies out of business and put everyone into a government run system. All decisions about personal health care will ultimately be made by federal bureaucrats and most of them will not be health care professionals. Hospital admissions, payments to physicians, and allocations of necessary medical devices will be strictly controlled.
However, as scary as all of that it, it just scratches the surface. In fact, I have concluded that this legislation really has no intention of providing affordable health care choices. Instead it is a convenient cover for the most massive transfer of power to the Executive Branch of government that has ever occurred, or even been contemplated. If this law or a similar one is adopted, major portions of the Constitution of the United States will effectively have been destroyed.
The first thing to go will be the masterfully crafted balance of power between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of the U.S. Government. The Congress will be transferring to the Obama Administration authority in a number of different areas over the lives of the American people and the businesses they own. The irony is that the Congress doesn’t have any authority to legislate in most of those areas to begin with. I defy anyone to read the text of the U.S. Constitution and find any authority granted to the members of Congress to regulate health care.
This legislation also provides for access by the appointees of the Obama administration of all of your personal healthcare information, your personal financial information, and the information of your employer, physician, and hospital. All of this is a direct violation of the specific provisions of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures. You can also forget about the right to privacy. That will have been legislated into oblivion regardless of what the 3rd and 4th Amendments may provide.
If you decide not to have healthcare insurance or if you have private insurance that is not deemed acceptable to the Health Choices Administrator appointed by Obama there will be a tax imposed on you. It is called a tax instead of a fine because of the intent to avoid application of the due process clause of the 5th Amendment. However, that doesn’t work because since there is nothing in the law that allows you to contest or appeal the imposition of the tax, it is definitely depriving someone of property without the due process of law.
So, there are three of those pesky amendments that the far left hate so much out the original ten in the Bill of Rights that are effectively nullified by this law. It doesn’t stop there though. The 9th Amendment that provides: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people; The 10th Amendment states: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are preserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Under the provisions of this piece of Congressional handiwork neither the people nor the states are going to have any rights or powers at all in many areas that once were theirs to control.
I could write many more pages about this legislation, but I think you get the idea. This is not about health care; it is about seizing power and limiting rights. Article 6 of the Constitution requires the members of both houses of Congress to be bound by oath or affirmation to support the Constitution. If I was a member of Congress I would not be able to vote for this legislation or anything like it without feeling I was violating that sacred oath or affirmation. If I voted for it anyway I would hope the American people would hold me accountable.
Michael Connelly
Constitutional Law Instructor
Carrollton , Texas
It is you and others like you who are the racists, raising whenever necessary to support your position the specter of black versus white.
Have another sip, guys!
Cheers!
Tom Degan
No thanks Tom I don't sip from the liberal koolaid, I find it dangerous and bitter tasting.
Aw, c'mon! Just a little sip!
Cheers!
Tom
To tell us, with a straight face, that Obama can insure millions more people without adding to the already skyrocketing deficit, is world-class chutzpa and an insult to anyone's intelligence. To do so after an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office has already showed this to be impossible reveals the depths of moral bankruptcy behind the glittering words. God, you're a typical gullible idiot liberal. Do you still wear flowers in your hair to go with those rose colored glasses?
Here is another set of facts about South Carolina. Karl Rove was a protege' of Bush 1's campaign manager Lee Atwater. Lee Atwater was a protege' of long time US Senator (S.C.) Strom Thurmond. Strom Thurmond campaigned vigorously for the current US Senator (S.C.) Lindsay Graham to the House of Representatives. Lindsay Graham replaced the retiring Strom Thurmond in the Senate. Segregationist Strom Thurmond has his hands all over the current and recent past state of South Carolina politics.
Anonymous coward quoting Michael Connelly:
"To begin with, much of what has been said about the law and its implications is in fact true, despite what the Democrats and the media are saying. The law does provide for rationing of health care, particularly where senior citizens and other classes of citizens are involved, free health care for illegal immigrants, free abortion services, and probably forced participation in abortions by members of the medical profession."
YOU LIE!
But I've already proven that a hundred times over. (yawn) I'm glad these idiots waste their time posting their insults and demented fantasies here, instead of stirring up more idiots elsewhere.
I notice that Connelly is just an "Instructor" not a professor -- which means he's just another lawyer. Period. I would post a link to his website, but it's infected with a virus. I hope "anonymous" catches it.
What do you think, Tom? Are these guys just masochists?
I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time logging into right-wing rants and picking fights. Interestingly, the ones I've cruised had few if any disagreeing opinions at all, much less foaming-at-the-mouth left-wing anger.
I guess that says something, doesn't it?
"...and probably forced participation in abortions by members of the medical profession."
This is fanaticism. This shows a poor understanding of American values. It's Palinism. Anyone who could believe in Death Panels has a very skewed idea of what liberals (even bad liberals) are about.
I note the writer adds "probably" though this is found in a paragraph with other so-called certitudes. This is like saying: Obama won't be able to bring in Healthcare without increasing the national debt (perhaps--we can discuss this point.) By the way, he's in favour of gassing the elderly and letting babies die in their incubators. (we can't discuss that--that's not possible--it's crazy thinking.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment on my blog today. You've obviously thought a lot more about politics than I have. I sincerely commend your for that.
With that said, I just want to respectfully point out that I really don't understand why someone who disagrees with a person of another race is automatically assumed to be racist.
Let's say that Rep. Wilson was totally wrong at his belief that Obama lied. (Personally, I have not done enough research to know, but that isn't the point of my argument anyway.) Ignorance of the facts or lack of respect for someone does not make someone a racist. How do you know that Wilson's outburst was because he is racist? Maybe he is just passionate about what he believes just as you are.
I tend to be fairly conservative in my political views, leaning more toward the GOP than anything else, but my agreement or disagreement with policy has nothing to do with the color of someone's skin.
From my experience as a leadership coach,behavioral analyst, and 40+ years of life, I have found that most people view the world through their own lens and don't try to look at the world through somoeone else's eyes. They tend to view behaviors and motivators different from their own as flawed, rather than just different.
For example, people who are paranoid are paranoid because they themselves may be "out to get" someone else. People who think they are being manipulated by others are oftentimes manipulators.
Along the same lines of logic, could people who assume everyone else is racist be in fact themselves racist?
I suppose the bottom line is that unless we really know why someone does or says the things they do, we need to try to assume the best and let God be their judge.
Well,. you can change the names to OBAMA AND THE DEMONCRATS and this fits them just as well.
It is not a question of racism white vs black..
It is a question about the Constitution... You need to READ both of the Messiah;s books then attempt to PROVE what he says by doing research on the INTERNET.
You see when he stated that his father was a British Subject..my attention was RAISED. I remember that I was taught... Natural Born Citizen... two parents that are CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.
All his records are sealed from Fifth Grade through Harvard. Why?
Records of his State Senate Seat are Lost.
He was the only Demoncrat on the US Senate Seat in Chicago... by the time his followers dug up dirt on the other candidates..
YOu need to research... Your THE ONE.. before you start throwing mud.
Oh and you have to gauge an individual by the company he keeps.. (GATES,JONES,WRIGHT) all black racists..
Janna Rust....
Congratulations. You are the first Conservative to comment on this topic to make a reasoned, respectful argument. You have also made a few very good points.
I wish that the people who have commented on this piece thus far would take your cue.
Thank you so much for your input. It is much appreciated. And thank you for the kind words.
All the best,
Tom Degan
Tom,
like your posts.
By the way, Jolson's line was
"You ain't heard nothin' yet."
People usually say "seen."
Keep 'em coming.
Steve
Hi Tom, I’m not surprised by some of the more confrontational posts in response to your BS about it being all about race. It tends to piss people off when you call them racist for not liking or agreeing with Obama. I came across this article today and found it particularly interesting. I usually love a good conspiracy theory, but this not so much. http://www.sodahead.com/other/why-are-obamas-records-sealed/blog-144427/
Hi Tom, I’m not surprised by some of the more confrontational posts in response to your BS about it being all about race. It tends to piss people off when you call them racist for not liking or agreeing with Obama. I came across this article today and found it particularly interesting. I usually love a good conspiracy theory, but this is scary. http://www.sodahead.com/other/why-are-obamas-records-sealed/blog-144427/
Joel...
So, the FCC was the secret government arm who protected Obama's "REAL" birth certificate? Even prior to his election?
You mean the same FCC that has (and continues) to support right-wing monopolizing of the media? You think all those underpaid, government right-wingers would let something like this go on without blowing the whistle or at LEAST leaking proof of the story?
What a hoot!
This website just provides the same unnamed, undated, third-hand, unsupported rumors from private, right-wing nobodies.
I challenge you to see what REAL card-carrying socialists think of Obama. Unfortunately, I am unable to post some of the websites that reveal how much they despise him as a murdering, right-wing "corporatist", but if you think you're really objective, you'll have NO trouble tracking them down.
It just might get you to imagine that whatever else he may be, he certainly ISN"T a socialist.
The right wing is ridiculous.
Anyone remember "Barack the magic Negro"?
All these "straw man" arguments from the right is ridiculous.
Middle Eastern Middle name-"automatic muslim"
You can't say the N word anymore so now the dumb Pubs have to resort to code. "muslim" "communist" "radical"
Anyone left of George Will is a radical.
All this bull is at it's heart racism. Look what happened to Clinton and he only talked black.
I think you are right Tom. They are out for blood this time. Some one will eventually do something in this environment. Maybe it might get people to wake up to this element.
They hide behind "freedom of speech" like Oreilly and Beck and spew hate speech and snicker.
I think that if something happens then it will bring people together.
Racism is Americas biggest scar.
It is so sad.
ralphlake:
Thanks for the information and the poem, which I can certainly empathize with. I have often wondered if I was born on the wrong planet -- but sometimes I think it was just the wrong country.
Canada seems to have realistic ideas about medical care and illegal immigrant. Of course -- they have much more realistic ideas about immigration, period. (Except that it would be nearly impossible for ME to move there, of course. ;-)
Thanks for your other excellent posts, too. I look forward to them!
One Ronin
Actually, you are in a great country--one of the greatest on the planet. There is no single winner. But America has many reasons to be proud. As for the planet, this is probably the only habitable one for many miles around. The trick is to keep it that way. (Canadians are amongst the worst environmental offenders on the planet--worse than you guys by quite a lot). Thanks for your comments.
I saw that link Joel.
Comparing Obama to Marx and HITLER??
You're right - It is scary. What is so frightening is that so many people would be stupid enough to take it seriously.
Tom
They're now twittering about murdering the president.
Tom, I love your blog. It is awesome. I have been circulating your web address to open minded friends of our persuasion.
Thank you so much for the kind words, Kathleen. That means a lot to me. The day has just turned a little more livable!
Shaw....
I just saw that link. Incredible.
All the best,
Tom Degan
I'm trying so hard not to become alarmed about the state of things in the USA...
But when every day you see pure hate vomited throughout various mediums of communication...you can't deny that something's gotta give.
I'm apalled that gun totin' jackasses can show up at Town Hall meetings and they're allowed to keep their guns! WTF? I understand these jerks are trying to provoke a scene, but if they went to a movie theater or Church or grocery store armed like that, they would be hauled away in no time! Hell, Bush wouldn't allow anyone wearing a T-Shirt that they didn't like to enter a rally or whatever.
I so wish Obama would address these kinds of issues...as long a bullies are allowed to run the show, it will only escalate like it did during the presidential speech last week.
Why
Hey Tom. Atom Smasher from http://menrnotspuds.blogspot.com/ here.
I've responded to your weird "I see black people" comment over on our blog. So go have at it. :)
-smasher
Hi Tom and all commentators.
I have a question for you... I understand that you disagree with this crowd that assembled, but I am confused as to why they have to be 'labeled' instead of taking on their points. I think it discredits either side to reduce the arguments to name-calling.
Tom, I am concerned that you will automatically assume that because someone is on the 'right' that they may do ill-will to anyone. If anyone were to do something like Timothy McVeigh, we ALL need to acknowledge that they are insane, no matter which 'side' they may be on. What of the individual that gunned down a pro-life demonstrator over the weekend? Is that a product of left-wing influence? Or is that a result of an insane person committing a crime, regardless of their influences? Rational people do not commit those types of acts.
I am willing to debate the issues, but reducing a debate to name-calling is just childish, for EITHER side!
From one of the many 'Rules of Debate' sites that are available with a simple Google search....
Name calling: debater tries to diminish the argument of his opponent by calling the opponent a name that is subjective and unattractive; for example, cult members and bad real estate gurus typically warn the targets of their frauds that “dream stealers” will try to tell them the cult or guru is giving them bad advice; name calling is only intellectually dishonest when the name in question is ill defined or is so subjective that it tells the listener more about the speaker than the person being spoken about; [i.e.] People who criticize their former employer are dishonestly dismissed as “disgruntled” or “bitter.” These are efforts to distract the audience by changing the subject because the speaker cannot refute the facts or logic of the opponent. There is nothing wrong with using a name that is relevant and objectively defined; [i.e.] "He is ignorant because he said that there are 57 states in the United States." (my example)
This is the problem with both sides today.... there is WAY too much name-calling, and that just goes to show that no one seems to know or discuss the facts.....
Why doesn't anyone address the questions that are being posed by this group instead of trying to call them names, which, as I have proved, just shows that the name-callers have no grasp of the facts.
I appreciate the commenter who was able to point out the facts of the healthcare bill to set the record straight - that is all I am asking anyone to do. Tell me what the truth is - NOT YOUR OPINION - but the truth. If you call me a name, I will know that you don't know what the truth is either, and will ask someone else that is more classy in debate etiquette than that.
Duane - Houston, TX
One Ronin, Don’t you think that people who lust for power would go to such lengths? It certainly is within the realm of possibility. I don’t think we really know who he is or what he stands for; no real track record. He was a virtual unknown until he ran for president. The right doesn’t like him, and the left is disappointed he isn’t left leaning enough. We may not know the real facts until it is too late. This is the reason why people are so opposed/afraid of him, and not because he has black skin.
An interesting fact about the whole race issue, did you know that, based on exit polls, the percentage of white non-college educated men who voted for Bush Sr. vs Dukakis was almost exactly the same as it was for Obama over McCain? These are the working class folks so frequently accussed of being stupid racists.
I didn't state that clearly: the same percentage voted for McCain as for Bush Sr.
Obama could become the best president since FDR. The right hated FDR of course, just as they hate BHO. However, when FDR died a leading right-wing journalist wrote, "We who hate your gaudy guts salute you." FDR's New Deal was by today's standards very "socialist." What it promised were the three Rs Relief, Reform, Recovery. Unfortunately, many of his programs were weakened because of lack of support from within the Democratic party. Sound familiar?
Joel: "I don’t think we really know who he is or what he stands for; no real track record ... We may not know the real facts until it is too late. This is the reason why people are so opposed/afraid of him, and not because he has black skin."
That's the difference between us -- because neither of us know anything "substantial" about Obama, you assume he is a malevolent monster. I don't. I simply judge as best as I can by what I can verify about him, by what I hear and see him say ... and mostly, by how sensible his decisions are. (Compared against my own logic.)
As I've said elsewhere, I was "on the fence" until Palin's second interview -- so please don't throw any "Obama worshipper" BS at me.
So, Joel, why do you assume he's a monster and that everyone who supports him is an idiot?
As for the "racist card", if you'll check my posts again, you'll see that I haven't been crying "racist" at you or anyone else. Check my previous posts on Tom's articles, too -- what you'll see that I'm particularly steeped in the racist experience throughout my childhood.
Some people call them "closet racists" I used to, too. Now I prefer to call them "silent racists" because their racism IS silent -- even to themselves.
But Tom and I differ in our experiences and priorities. From experience, I know that "calling out" a silent racist will not persuade them to see a different view -- it will only harden them and make them dig deeper into denial and bigotry.
So in conclusion, I'll ask you one final question. If Obama were opposed by an equally "green", unknown, and untested Republican candidate (like Palin), and their policies were equally obscure and questionable. who would you have voted for, and why?
Don't post your answer to me, because frankly, I don't care. If you really would consider them "equal risks" you're not a racist, and your motives are honestly motivated. If not, you should question your real feelings about blacks, and whether you may be a "silent racist".
...And if you don't, nothing I say will matter anyway.
If you aren't a silent racist, I applaud you -- but even then, I have to ask, are you willing to assume everyone else who hates Obama is like you? ...Even if the future of America were at stake?
Again, no need to answer....
Duane: "What of the individual that gunned down a pro-life demonstrator over the weekend? Is that a product of left-wing influence? Or is that a result of an insane person committing a crime, regardless of their influences? Rational people do not commit those types of acts."
You are absolutely right (er... "correct"..!?)
The problem as I see it, is that moderates on both the right AND left are too reluctant to disavow the actions of the "insane" in the name of their own values. It's a "sneaky" thing that no one believes --
("I really like what they did, even though it was horrible, so I'll just keep my mouth shut and complain when the opposition claims I supported it.")
Either side who chooses to use EITHER the reaction of their opposite side as justification (as the many radical right-wingers already have) OR stays silent about the act completely (as the remainder have) assumes responsibility for the act.
(And the same goes for the left.)
Why is everyone forgetting the Elephants and why they were chosen as the Republican totem?
Duane: "This is the problem with both sides today.... there is WAY too much name-calling, and that just goes to show that no one seems to know or discuss the facts...."
I long for dialogue with "opponents" who are simply willing to produce facts and discuss the reasons for disagreements, with the SINCERE objective of finding ways to resolve and move BEYOND those disagreements... where ever that may lead.
Thank you!
ralphlake: "Actually, you are in a great country--one of the greatest on the planet. There is no single winner. But America has many reasons to be proud. "
Thank you, too. It's "hard to see the picture when you're inside the frame." I'm glad to hear a close neighbor say that America should be proud. I always feel we should be -- but we're not quite there yet.
No doubt, the destructive side of perfectionism at work in me .. as it always is.
Great article, Tom, one that allowed a lively discussion to follow. I don't know if anyone knows if the motivation behind the slander and false assumptions of this president by the Right is based on racism.
What I can see are parallels between what happened in Germany in the 1930's and what is happening in the US today. I think you pointed this out very well several times. So to me the motivation of the Right is simply fear bred by ignorance about people who are not like them. Also fear of change, fear of losing what they know, and fear of being forced to open their eyes to things they have chosen to be ignorant about for so long.
When (for instance) someone is hysterical about the president speaking to our school children, sobbing on camera and saying they'll keep their children home so that they won't be influenced negatively, that is such a blatant example of fear-based emotions taking over the ability to reason. The examples are too numerous to list.
The whole "you lie" episode last week shows again that those who benefit from fostering this ignorance and fear will continue to do so. And those seeped in ignorance and fear will continue to believe it. Both would rather do this than admit the fact that they might be wrong.
Spreading fear is what the nazi's did best, and it's what all groups do who tend to speak to our baser instincts. Spreading fear about: illegals (those who they say don't belong here), about a man (who happens to be half-black) who was democratically elected president but is basically being called an impostor based on facts no one can even prove, about the educated elite (like the Jews were in 1930's Europe), about the left-leaning crowd who would love for this country to have some of those great social benefits that most Western societies have (like the democratic socialists and communists that Hitler hated), all this sounds very familiar and very parallel to Germany back then. This group hates programs that might cut down greedy corporations whose only modus operandi is to suck each of its subjects dry to benefit their bottom dollar, even though doing so would benefit the working man, many of whom are Right-leaning. They would "cut off their own nose to spite their face."
Their message is not grounded on facts, intelligence or reason, but on fear and ignorance. That includes racism or any kind of fear-based feelings people can be polluted with.
Monique said
"Their message is not grounded on facts, intelligence or reason, but on fear and ignorance. That includes racism or any kind of fear-based feelings people can be polluted with."
===================
I don't see how you can listen to points like
"I don't like the way this president or this congress handles fiscal matters."
"I don't believe this president or this congress when they say their ideas are not going to mire us in staggering debt."
"I don't trust Obama based on his words, his actions, or his associates."
and label them as fear-based, or ignorant.
I can see how a person could disagree with statements like that, but I hardly think they can be casually dismissed as not being based on reason or facts.
Kudos for the Alinsky styled argument. Those opposed to Obama are not opposed to him personally, nor to
his race or color but to his politics......... i.e. his far left policies. Funny how quickly the left forgets the rule of law, that we live in a representative republic.
Alinsky would be proud, what a perfect tactic......... anyone who disagrees with Obama's policies is automatically tagged as a bigoted racist. B/T/W the person who showed up at the townhall meeting w/
a firearm was NOT WHITE. The people who show up at town halls are a diverse mix so the race and political affiliation argument are a huge fail.
Atom Smasher -
Your examples of statements are based on fact? You gave these examples:
"I don't believe this president or this congress..."
and: "I don't trust Obama based on his words..."
What facts are you basing those statements on? What are they based on if not fear and distrust?
Monique said:
Your examples of statements are based on fact? You gave these examples:
"I don't believe this president or this congress..."
and: "I don't trust Obama based on his words..."
What facts are you basing those statements on? What are they based on if not fear and distrust?
======================
Don't you see it as completely improper that you've excerpted only 2 of my 3 points, and only parts of them at that?
Do you really think that's a valid "counter" or answer to my post?
-dale
This comment has been removed by the author.
I have a couple of observations about all of the right-left arguments and would like to see what everyone here thinks....
Both sides have radicals that don't represent the majority of those that share *some* of the same beliefs.
I believe that the majority of Americans are in the middle (Light, maybe) and can agree with principles from both sides of the aisle.
Radical conservatives believe in individual responsibility, small government ("get outta my way and let me succeed!), the rule of law, the right to make their own decisions about anything and everything as long as it doesn't infringe on someone elses' rights and freedoms, low taxes to maximize the money in the private sector, strong national defense to protect our freedoms from nations that are hostile to us, and freedom OF religion.
Radical liberals believe in community responsibility (community above the individual), a government to invoke social and economic justice to everyone in the community, the rule of law, that many 'individual' decisions should be regulated so that the community is best served, progressive taxes that effectively redistribute 'disproportionate' incomes to benefit the entire community, National defense to protect us only in our own country from those that would cause us harm - our troops on international soil is a travesty, and freedom FROM religion.
There are many statements on both sides that many Americans partially agree with. However, when either side says that everything they stand for is non-negotiable, then the argument becomes irreconcilable. Read both of these descriptions and explain how you would ever get two unwavering people to get along? You can't. You have to be willing to work to a solution that both sides can be happy with.
You also cannot dismiss one side as lunacy, either. These are deep-seeded beliefs in many people and reflect who they are - calling either side "wrong" is an injustice to Americans in general.
Our nation, until recently, has been exemplary at compromise. That isn't the case anymore.
Monique, the reason I don't agree with the President is because he has made it clear that the things that I don't agree with are non-negotiable - universal health care, the climate bill, and redistribution of wealth to name a few.
He says over and over that he wants to be bi-partisan when he hasn't included Republicans in Healthcare discussions since April and won't look at the five or so proposals that the Republicans have for healthcare reform.
A truly bi-partisan President would acknowledge the other proposals and judge them on their merit and say "this is what I don't like about this" instead of dismissing the fact that they even exist.
I don't like the fact that early in his Presidency when approached by Republicans on an issue, his answer to their request was "I won" (coincidentally, that's the general consensus of the Democratic party these days). Not having debate is a BAD thing for America.
So see, this isn't about racism, it is about difference in belief systems.
I do not support the type of bully politics currently being used - from either side. I hope you will be able to see that.
I have had issues with government in general for the last 15 or so years, but now my aggravation has turned to anger, and I believe that is what you are seeing in these 'TEA parties'. President Obama just has the unfortunate luck of being in office when the anger of the people has started to boil over the top. I didn't have faith in John McCain, either, so this probably would have happened regardless of who was in the White House - although that is just my personal opinion and you are welcome to disagree. :)
But it was a lie. That is the central fact which is the context for this story.
Living in Britain under the same basic premise as Obama has to put forward I can tell you for a fact that illegal aliens would be granted healthcare paid for by your taxes if that bill goes through. Wilson broke a convention. A similar convention holds in our House of Commons. However in the House of Commons telling a lie is frowned upon far more. What about your legislature?
OK we have that out of the way. the rest of your post is pure, meaningless, racist politicking. If you imply racism just because a white man criticises a mixed-race man then you are the racist, not he.
"The proposed health care bill would, in fact, cover illegals in case of a catastrophic emergency, but not as a matter of routine."
That is just not true, Tom. The Democrats removed a Republican amendment to enforce the restriction of healthcare to legal residents, so there is nothing at all to stop illegals claiming cover. I have never lived in the USA, have not even been for 9 years, how come I know this stuff and you don't? Get with the programme, you can't participate in a rational way in democracy if you have no idea what's going on!
You busted me, Richard! Secretly I am a Grand Dragon Dragon of the Goshen, NY Chapter of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
How did you figure me out? What gave it away?
You're good, Richard! You're really good!
Sincerely,
Thomas M. Degan
Treasurer of the
George Lincoln Rockwell
Memorial Fund
Atom Smasher - You never answered my question either. I addressed 2 of your statements (I provided them shortened in my reply to save re-reading them entirely) that began with words like "I don't trust" and "I don't believe" which to me seems like these thoughts are indeed coming from fear and distrust. Your 3rd statement was an opinion and I had no problem with it. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. But my whole argument was that there is unreasonable fear behind a lot of statements coming from his opponents. As Duane points out, there's fear on both sides of the aisle, not just with the Right.
Duane - While I don't agree with you about Obama forcing issues on us without giving the other side a chance to voice theirs or have their points even considered, I respect your point of view. At least you back your words up with reasonable examples. I think personally that Obama's given the Right a LOT of concessions regarding many of his policies, which to me says he actually did listen to them and took them into consideration, plus the town hall meetings this summer were all about debate, but some folks apparently used those as soapbox forums for shouting out personal beliefs, not debating.
My issue is with people like Atom Smasher. To say "I don't trust Obama based on his words, his actions, or his associates" without backing that up with facts or a reasonable argument is hardly going to make me think he's thought this through.
Another point of contention that I have about this healthcare bill in the House is that section 102 appears to say that new policies can only be written through the exchange beginning on the first day of the year that the legislation is enacted. When asked about this during a press conference on July 21 of this year, the Preesident responded: "You know, I have to say that I am not familiar with the provision you are talking about."
This is another item that he has continually talked about - "you will be able to keep your existing plan". Although, technically that is true, your existing plan can be grandfathered in, but it has to be acceptable to the powers that be (the exchange commissioner according to the bill) in order to prevent paying a 'fine' to the IRS of up to 2.5% of your annual salary for 'unacceptable coverage'. So if you like your plan, but the government doesn't, then you can keep your plan, but pay a fine.
If you decide to change your plan - go to a different company for coverage, select a different plan from your existing company, then you can only make that new selection from the plans offered through the healthcare exchange. So, technically, as I read it, private healthcare policies would become illegal if not transacted through the new healthcare exchange.
The President said that he wasn't familiar with this provision - don't you think he should know about this while he is out telling people about it? Don't you think he should be able to articulate what will happen to existing plans and the possible consequences? This is one of the reasons why I question him and am wary of giving him my trust, and this is only one example.
Bill Clinton lost my trust when he said "that depends on what the definition of "is" is" and perjured himself on videotape. George Bush took the trust of the people and gave us reason to question that trust - through the Patriot Act and other actions. I'm not so willing to offer up that trust to ANYONE at this point, especially when I see this type of statement being made by our NEW President.
Monique, you said that the President has compromised many times for the Right - but you didn't support that statement with examples. Do you have any examples to support your statement that might clear my sight on this issue?
Monique-
I already gave you my reasoning. I don't trust Obama because, well, #1, he's a pol, and all pols speak out of both sides of their mouths. But with him, #2 is that he clearly has no love for this country, let alone respect. He is duplicitous and has terrorists and racist anti-Americans for friends, fine.
I guess that could happen to anybody.
But to have nothing good to say about this country and have plenty of bad to say, well, that's not a man I find trustworthy or respectable or worthy of leading us. I find him to be quite a disgusting person actually.
As far as specifics, well, politically it doesn't get much simpler for me - he's in favor of redistributive taxes and policies, siezing control of businesses and industry, he's in favor of viewing the Constitution as a guideline that can grow with the times, he believes that spending money in a time of fiscal crisis is sound, and he's in favor of weakening the power of America on the world stage.
So there're my basic, fact-based reasons for disagreeing with him politically.
Distrust? Some of it's personal, as I outlined above, but that's relatively meaningless. Clinton eventually disgusted me a little bit but I still think he was an okay President. But political distrust is another matter and out there for all to see.
He claims to be bi-partisan and he's done absolutely nothing to even throw a bone to Republicans.
He claims that he doesn't want to increase the size of government just for the sake of making it bigger, yet he signed the abhorrantly porky stimulus package which achieves nothing BUT the expansion of government for no return, he has taken over banks and parts of the auto industry.
He claims to be "post-racial" and yet he went out of his way to inject himself and the American Presidency into the Cambridge affair, and has done nothing to stop the baseless and crass attempts by his party to dismiss any criticism of him or his policies as "racist".
I could go on, but in my experience it wouldn't matter much, and I only came over here because Tom Degan posted some weird crap on my site accusing me (by way of being a conservative) of being racist and has not done me the courtesy of continuing that engagement on my own site.
Regards,
Atom Smasher
Atom Smasher....
Yes Obama is a pol. So was all of the forty-two men who proceeded him in the White House. What is your point, pardner?
And how can you say that he does not love his country? Forgive me but that's just plain silly. Of course he loves his country!
And finally, I never accused you of being a racist, my friend. Go back and reread what I wrote. I'm sure you are not a bigot. Chill!
All the best,
Tom Degan
Thank you Tom, it’s refreshing to hear a voice of reason in all the insanity that goes on in the media. We used to ignore idiots like Beck, Limbaugh and Palin and now they give them so much coverage - I blame the press for a good deal of the problems we are facing. There are some media sources that call it like it is, MSNBC and so on, but currently not enough of them, and your right there are a lot of people who have small minds and believe what they want to believe. I too worry about Obama but I also try to keep in mind that there are some decent white people out there who don't judge a person by their race or Obama would never have been elected. We have always had a group of white people who think they are superior to other races, and off course we have the Klu Klux Klan and they still exist, they have just changed their name to the "Tea Party" in order to fly under the radar. I say this because the Tea party perpetuates the use of guns and violence to intimidate just like the KKK - and any group that perpetuates violence as a solution, to anything, is a” white supremist” group in my book -- and the Tea Party has the nerve to call Obama a Hitler but they are the true examples of Nazism. The left is open for discussion and an intelligent debate, and I am very appreciative that Obama has currently taken the high road in his recent speech pointing out that we are first Americans and must stand United, I hope and I know he will continue to emphasize the importance of keeping this in mind, and fight hate and fear that the Right is trying to perpetuate in this county, with patience and love. “United We Stand and Divided we Fall” could not be truer than now, I only hope those who would divide us realize it before it’s too late.
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