Time to Invoke the Twenty-Fifth
"I learned so much about coronavirus, and one thing that's for certain: Don't let it dominate you, don't be afraid of it. You're gonna beat it".
So said Donald Trump on Monday as he attempted to lure thousands of naïve Americans to their deaths. We were all hoping that his own experience being hospitalized with the COVID-19 virus would have humanized him just a little bit and bought the disgusting old geezer down to earth somewhat. But there he was, sending out a video, standing without a mask, with the south lawn of the White House in the background, telling the American people that there was nothing to fear and that they needed to go back out into the world. As if trying to encourage them further, he plans on more rallies between now and the November third election.
It was a curious sight when he arrived back at the Executive Mansion after a three day stay at Walter Reed; instead of walking through the ground level main entrance of the southern portico (as nearly everyone does) Trump proceeded to climb the twenty-two steps that lead to the upper entrance. While obviously struggling to breathe, the man removed his face mask for an extended, Mussolini-like pose, and then gave salute that seemed to last forever. It had to be the strangest behavior I've ever witnessed from a president. Weird.
One of the side effects of the steroids that Donald is taking is generally nutty behavior, and his behavior has been pretty nutty in the last forty-eight hours to be sure. It started out with a series of seventeen unhinged tweets on the morning after the photo-op on the southern portico and has only gotten progressively stranger - like telling the American public that there will be no stimulus package until after the election. In other words:
REELECT ME OR YOU WILL STARVE.
It was the most despicable thing I have ever seen coming out of the White House - and remember, I'm old enough to remember Dick Nixon! You know the time has come to throw in the towel when a president starts to get compared unfavorably to the likes of Nixon.
Since all of the grownups have either resigned of have been fired from this administration, there seems to be no responsible voices whispering into Trump's ear any longer. The entire joint is drenched with political hacks and right-wing extremists. Since the nineties it has been obvious to anyone paying attention that the man is mentally ill; but in the last three days his insanity has gone crashing into full-tilt-boogie mode. And remember, he has the nuclear codes within an arm's reach of his tubby torso. We are past the time when the 25th Amendment should have been invoked and the responsibilities of the presidency handed over to - and I cannot believe that I am even writing these words - Mike Pence. That is how completely extreme things have gotten.
From this moment on until January 20, 2021, the country and the entire planet will be walking on cracked eggshells wondering when or if this lunatic will ignite a third world war. This is going to be the longest three month period in our collective history. Hang in there - and pay attention.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
posted by Tom Degan @ 12:31 PM
84 comments
84 Comments:
I know if I lived in a New York senior citizen's home and had Andrew Cuomo as my governor, I'd be scared to death! Mask or no mask.
Chuck, is it possible to come up with one thing that you do not like about Trump?
It's got to be the massive increase in the deficit right? Or the abundant use of Executive Orders/Actions, no doubt? The reverence of despots and dictators, maybe? The Take the Guns First, Due Process later attitude, perhaps?
No?
Deflect from an article about invoking the 25th Amendment by inexplicably trying to derail the conversation toward Andrew Cuomo of all people? Yeah, I suppose that's on par for our under the bridge dweller.
JTF,
And if you were Herman "No Mask" Cain, you'd be dead.
How does it feel having all the Nazis on your side?
Rev. Dave,
I wouldn't know how it feels Rev., maybe you can tell me how it feels to you?
Woodenman,
Why don't you ask the members of Rev Dave's cult of liberalism to name one thing they like about President Trump?
I doubt they could find something positive about Trump. I liked the idea of better relations with Russia, Trumps said this in 2016 but he folded to Democratic propaganda and now we have the worst relationship with Russia ever.
JTF,
You're right. You wouldn't know much at all. That has been established. Now go back to waving your Confederate flag with your racist pals. Antifa Central Command knows where you live.
Woody,
Look at the price for "better relations". Trump wants to please Putin. He betrayed our country in Helsinki. He owes Russian banks. He repeats their election interference propaganda.
And Putin WANTS HIM TO WIN. He doesn't want "better relations". He wants dominance. Authoritarians are all alike. This is why Covid Don gets a rise in his trousers whenever he sees Putin.
Rev. Dave,
There you go again projecting and deflecting...Typical of your cult of liberalism, do it your way or else Antifa and BLM will be at your doorstep, like Rev. Dave explained would happen to me and how the Rev. ran his area of the jail.
Rev, found any Bible passages you can share with me to lead me to the answers to YOUR questions? Maybe while you are in there you can tell us what makes a person a Christian?
Still waiting Rev. it's your big chance at a revival.
JTF’s kind of people:
“The National Government...regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolf Hitler "My New Order" - Proclamation to the German Nation, Berlin, February 1, 1933
On October 10, 1936 Heinrich Himmler created the Reich Central Office for Combating Homosexuality and Abortion, or Special Office (II S), a sub-department of Executive Department II of the Gestapo.
The far Right’s primary Big Lie is “liberal media” in their war on journalism. Journalism has always been seen as a threat to totalitarians and authoritarians.
The German Nazis used the term “Lügenpresse”, or lying press, in their campaign to destroy journalism. Now American fascists cry “liberal media” and “fake news” when the truth threatens their agenda.
Trump emulates Hitler in every way he can: “Just remember, what you are seeing and what you are reading is not what's happening.”
These are the devoted authoritarian fanatics of the fascist Right that have risen to frightening levels of influence in their war on our Constitution’s regulation of commerce and provision for the general welfare. They actively suppress voter rights, democracy, a free press, science, education, unions and minorities.
Let's be clear on what they are. The Trump Cult is a movement of Nationalist American Zealots for Inequality. (N.A.Z.I.) They're the Nazis of our time. These authoritarian white nationalists have become the Fourth Reich.
Like Hitler's Nazis they hate minorities, journalists, liberals, socialists, educators, unions, equality and democracy.
If they hate like Nazis, and neo-azis are on their side, they ARE Nazis.
Looks like the Rev. Dave is working overtime to distance himself from answering questions about Christianity that he brought up (LOL)..like can you tell us what makes a person a Christian?
Deflection time, can calling me a racist be far behind?
JTF can't help but be a liar. The simple questions were for him to answer. He couldn't answer them because he is a coward, and a fake Christian. He couldn't answer the questions to save his damned hate-filled soul.
He's as much a Christian as Trump. He doesn't know the message of Jesus. All he knows is hate.
Cons NEVER answer questions. They only demand answers to ever shifting questions.
Here is how they operate:
“I don’t have to listen to you. I know more about what you think than you do, and I know it is bad. I know all I need to know. I don’t care about your journalists, educators, scientists, doctors, logic, facts and evidence. And I don’t answer questions.
Now, why don’t you listen to me? I’ll tell you Trump and Republicans and conservatism and capitalism and militarism and nationalism and MY religion have ALL the right answers to everything. And that makes you wrong about everything."
Yup. Trumpism FEELS so good. And this is exactly how Fascism feels so good.
Are there any Christian conservatives willing to answer a few simple questions?
How does giving tax cuts to the rich reflect what Jesus wants?
How does cutting food stamps for the poor reflect what Jesus wants?
How does cutting Social Security and Medicare for the elderly reflect what Jesus wants?
How is taking healthcare from the sick and poor what Jesus wants?
What did Jesus say about taxes and the rich?
How does allowing corporate polluters have their way reflect what Jesus wants?
How does turning a blind eye to racism and police brutality reflect what Jesus wants?
How does Trump follow the teachings of Jesus?
Why does Jesus want us to vote for a servant of mammon?
Maybe Christian conservatives can be honest for a change, and just say they don't want to discuss the answers to these questions.
Perhaps these questions make them FEEL confused, frustrated and angry?
That might just be the only “answer” that matters to them.
Rev. Dave,
I don't know the answers to your questions, but since you asked them and are an expert on Christianity, why not share your answers and the Bible passages you used to support your answers? Come on Rev. Dave, this is your shot at the BIG time. And while you are at it, can you tell us what makes a person a Christian?
Tough questions, but then you are the Reverend Dave.
"I don't know the answers to your questions," - JTF
And there it is. He slipped and gave an honest response.
A Christian would know Trump isn't a Christian, and none of his actions, words or policies reflect the teachings of Jesus.
Rev. Dave
Save me oh save me with your answers and the passages from the Bible to support same. BTW, can you tell us what makes a person a Christian? And since you don't know what makes a person a Christian, how can you know President Trump isn't a Christian? Come on Rev. Dave, lead me out of this wilderness! Do YOU know the answers to your own questions? Share them with us if you do and support with passages from the Bible, since it is YOU would brought up Christian and Jesus and must be an expert.
P.S. Rev. Dave,
I can and will do this all night if you want to, so just give us he answers to your own questions.
Man, must be amazing having that amount of free time. You tag out to a second shift JTF if it runs passed midnight? Or are you Second Shift and 3rd shift comes on at midnight?
No, you! lol.
Guess. It's all you've done so far.
JTF, I can tell you what I LOVE about Trump.
HE'S NOT TWINS.
And Trump cannot be Christian with his hatred of anyone non white, his contempt for the poor, and his love of HIMSELF.
Can you name ONE commandment Trump has NOT broken?
You have nothing but deflection and apologies for Trump. If jesus were alive today trump would have that Brown skinned SOCIALIST from the Middle east banned from the USA.
"And Trump cannot be Christian with his hatred of anyone non white, his contempt for the poor, and his love of HIMSELF."
Source.
"Can you name ONE commandment Trump has NOT broken?" Nope, can you? For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23m And your point?
I can and will do this all night if you want to, so just give us he answers to your own questions. - JTF
Ah, so I entertain you? Thank you very much!
Now how about you entertain my questions?
After all, they were presented to you, so that you may take the opportunity enlighten us. You could even prove me wrong! I bet someone smart as you can make me look stupid. How does that sound?...
....I bet it sounds overwhelming, amirite? A terrible strain.
I shouldn't ask so much of you.
In the spirit of fairness and cooperation, I invite you to answer just one of my questions.
Take your pick.
I got all night. I'm sure I have time for a good night's rest. I could probably even get to sleep in 'til noon before you get around to answering one of those questions. As if...
That's the thing I know about cons. We can always depend on them to lie. And we can predict they will behave like pubescent girl bullies and teen punks cowering before a person who takes a stand.
But wait. Maybe you were being temporarily honest when you said, "I don't know the answers to your questions."
Conservatives are very well-practiced at not learning what they don't want to know. In that case, I accept your admission that you don't know the answers. But don't feel bad. There are millions of Trump voting conservative Christians who also don't know any of the answers either.
You can stay up and play late as you want.
No JTF, I cannot name ONE commandment trump hasn't broken. Thank you for admitting he's nowhere near being a "Christian".
My point is that if the excuse is "nobody's perfect" then what's the point of having commandments? My point is that you don;t give any liberals that excuse. My point is that you will apologize for trump no matter what he does.
You are incapable of answering the simplest of questions.
"I invite you to answer just one of my questions." I invite you to answer just ONE of your own questions.
Yes Rev. Dave you are VERY entertaining, but I wouldn't quit your day job if I were you. You're not that good.
BTW Reverend Dave, can you tell us what makes a person a Christian? I mean you are the guy who posts so much about Christians and Jesus, so fill us in. Surely with your vast knowledge about all things Jesus and Christian you can answer that question.
UNLESS!
Just like Elmer Gantry, you are a fraud.
"Thank you for admitting he's nowhere near being a "Christian".
Gee Mozart since Rev. Dave seems to be a dead end, maybe you can tell me what makes a person a Christian? Seems the simplest of questions, so Mr. Big Brain (with drums) what makes a person a Christian? Then we can determine if President Trump is a Christian. Ready to play? Go for it, but my bet is you will deflect.
You seem to be incapable of answering the simplest of questions, prove me wrong, change my mind. What makes a person a Christian?
P.S. I am NOT "the guy who posts so much about Christians and Jesus", that would be Rev. Dave who started this conversation about 3 hours ago...try to focus. I simply asked him to answer HIS questions about Jesus using the Bible as his source...so far just crickets.
There, I brought you up to date, now take the time, read the older posts (in order to prevent you from looking like bigger a fool than you already are known to be) and tell us all what makes a person a Christian? Rev. Dave, your hero, seems incapable of doing so. Here's your big show time chance.
Trump is so far from being a Christian that he might be The Anti-Christ.
Ok woodenman, support your feelings with supporting documents, sources, and passages from the Bible. BTW, what makes a person a Christian?
Chuck, the reason you cannot answer questions is that you have no confidence in your opinions. You know that there are numerous areas in politics that you are poorly informed and you are afraid of making a mistake.
I do not have that problem because I probably read more in one month than you do in a year.
woodenman,
Since you read so much, maybe you can answer what makes a person a Christian?
"what makes a person a Christian?"
He STILL doesn't know? Then he never will.
The first prerequisite is to be a Liberal.
Rev. Dave
And do you know what makes a person a Christian? If so please share, if not then drop your fake pretense that you are a Christian and therefore can determine others actions in light of your "Christianity".
What amazes me is how hard Rev. Dave will fight to not answer a simple question on a subject he brought up. Why is that Rev. Dave? What are you hiding. What are you afraid of?
woodenman,
Please provide your sources from the Bible to support your claim.
JTF, have you read the beatitudes? Have you read the words of Jesus? Everything the Bible says about Jesus is diametrically opposed to the policies of the conservatives.
So Mozart you believe you are a Christian by reading selected Bible passages? Please provide evidence of same. Abortion, can you show me where Jesus supported abortion?
And while you are at it, do you know what makes a person a Christian? If so share, if not google it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
JTF is one of those "special" Christians who can disregard the teachings of Jesus.
Everything he says mocks the words of his Savior. He votes for the Party of, by, and for the rich.
He cannot love his neighbor, especially if he was a Democrat.
He cannot serve God because his loyalty is to an evil servant of mammon.
We wants the rich to have more, and for the poor to have less.
He doesn't care a bit for the sick poor people in need of healthcare. He wants them to suffer more by taking away their public healthcare and food stamps.
He has no compassion for refugees, or their children, seeking asylum.
He has no compassion for the victims of racist police brutality.
He cheers for Trump, along with his fellow hateful white supremacists, Nazis, racists, Proud Boys, and other bigots. (They will also tell you they are "Christians".)
There is nothing Christian about him. Only hatred, ignorance, and glaring hypocrisy.
If we can see it, then Jesus can see the darkness within his cold hateful heart.
Yes, he is "special Christian". A Trump Christian. That says it all.
Rev Dave,
Still throwing around what a Christian is and isn't but yet you refuse to tell us what makes a person a Christian? Really Rev. don't you think it's time for you to admit it is YOU who doesn't know? Which makes your statements about what a Christian does or doesn't do rather false?
A person's choice to follow the teachings of Jesus, to exhibit behavior that demonstrates and reflects the teachings, and his love and compassion for his fellow man make them Christian.
Lip service and sending money to evangelical TV conmen won't cut it. You can say, "I believe", all day long. The words are meaningless, unless they are sincere and guide you to love and compassion for all people. Even immigrants. Even Black people. Even liberals.
Anyone can say, "I believe!" Liars can say it. Hypocrites say it. Servants of mammon say it. Satan can say it. In 1941 Hitler said, “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." Does that make them Christian?
It makes them "Trump Christians". We can spot 'em a mile away, like "very fine people" with tiki torches.
We know them "By their fruits".
WOW Rev. Dave actually answered the question. I agree in part with much you have said, IE: You can say, "I believe", "sending money to evangelical TV conmen won't cut it". I agree!! Works does not make a person a Christian.
But I believe there is more to "what makes a person a Christian" and I believe I have the scriptures to support my beliefs.
1. God is holy and can not tolerate disobedience or sins against His laws.
2. The punishment for sin is total separation from God IE: Hell, death.
3. All humans are sinners and deserve God's just punishment.
4. Man can not get forgiveness by works, nor does God judge on the curve.
5. BUT, God so loved the world he sent his only Son (Jesus, a sinless man) to pay the price for our sin. IE Death, Hell on the cross.
6. Being sinless Jesus rose from the dead and ascend into heaven, sits at the right hand of God and will judge all humans.
I believe to be a Christian is to believe that one can never be good enough IE works will not do it, I believe through no merit of my own I am viewed by God as sinless because of my faith that Jesus death for me paid the price for my sin.
Now, does this release me from caring for the poor or not paying the taxes that I owe, or hating a person because of their race, or that I am now sinless, etc? Far from it, I sin against God every day by omission and commission in thought and be deed. I am forgiven, that's all. It has nothing to do with political party, gender, age, race. It has everything to do with one's relationship with God the father, through Jesus the son as the Holy Spirit works in ones life. Really rather simply, God does all the heavy lifting.
I would encourage you to read J.I.Packer's book "Knowing God" for a much better insight than what I just offerred to what it means to be a Christian.
JTF,
OK. Now you are actually contributing.
If sin by omission or commission or hate for others is willfully repeated without remorse or repentance, is it forgiven? Or does saying "I'm a Christian and God will forgive me for everything evil I care to do, and I can get away with".
Is that how it works?
Is one saved if he makes no honest effort to turn from greed, hate and evil, and rejects love and compassion for the sick and poor? Is one saved by saying, "I believe, so I can do whatever I want because I am forgiven and saved." Is the Holy Spirit with that person?
Is there a "get out of Hell free" card for unrepentant hypocrites?
"By their fruits ye shall know them."
They are the ones who always ignore the "Two Commandments". They are the Trump Christians.
Rev. Dave,
I believe I need to ask for forgiveness every day of my life, for sins I've committed before, for new sins I've never before committed, for sins I didn't know were sins and sins I knew were sins. There is no limit to the sins a human can commit. And there is no limit to the amount of sins God can forgive.
We were born into sin, and had no choice but to sin until we become a Christian. Then due to the work of sanctification by the Holy Spirit once we believed by faith that Jesus paid the price for our sin, we have for the first time the ability to NOT sin. Sadly because we are humans, most of the time we pick to sin, hence the need to ask for forgiveness.
I believe being a Christian is NOT receiving a "get out of hell card". I believe as a Christian, my reward in heaven will be based on my faithfulness to God's commands here on earth. I believe as Paul said there are babes in Christ and there are fully adult grown up Christians. And everything in between. Hence the difference in behaviors of Christians..let me say here, that one can not undo being a Christian. Note, I didn't say Catholic or Methodist.
"They are the ones who always ignore the "Two Commandments"." I do not understand this statement.
"They are the Trump Christians" Remember Rev.
Matthew 7 1-3
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Chuck, I believe you are a much better person than you come across in this forum. You used to take care of foster kids which is a great thing to do.
It is too bad you give unquestionable loyalty and unconditional support to politicians that do not deserve it.
The Two Commandments.
Matthew 22:37-40
New International Version
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
This is the measure of one's Christianity. Fake Christians and hypocrites say they love God, but ignore Jesus's second commandment with their fevered hate and unconcern for the suffering of others.
Matthew 7:1-3
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
I may judge according my conscience, because I am prepared to be judged by the dictates of my conscience.
Unlike your Dear Leader who echoes Hitler in calling Kamala a "communist and a monster".
His is the face of evil. When Trump decreed, "Liberate Michigan", far Right extremist thugs conspired to kidnap the governor. These are directly in line with Hitler's demonization and Beer Hall Putsch.
They are Nazis without the swastikas.
They are evil. I judge by fair and decent standards, and hope all of these fascists face justice.
We must always, as a civilized society, judge criminals, Nazis, racists, and hateful bigots, and even destructive anarchist vandals you falsely label BLM, lest they corrupt and defile our republic into a totalitarian dictatorship.
Should those who murder burn and steal also be judged. Should those who break the law be judged? Should those who support the legalization of murdering innocent humans while still in their mother womb be judged? Should communists who deny there is a God be judged? Should those who hate a man so much they act out of anger and rage be judged? Do you hope all the communists who deny God, face judgement?
"I may judge according my conscience, because I am prepared to be judged by the dictates of my conscience." I'm sorry Rev. but you are not going to be judged by the dictates of your conscience, but by someone much larger who is perfect and holds you to that same perfection. Your conscience means nothing. And when you get down to it, that is where you and I have to part our ways. You don't get to set the rules, God does. Shake your fist all you want at God, but it's not your call.
As for the Two Laws, neither of them determine your salvation. If the Law is all you need, then why did Jesus die? Because just as no has kept the 10 Commandments and are condemned to hell, no one will keep the 11th commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. Law keeping does not result in salvation or forgiveness of sins. It is trusting in the act of Jesus on the cross which does.
woodenman, I lost my respect for you when you stated how good it was that 30 million humans had been aborted and that their deaths had made the world a safer place, etc. Talk about an allegiance to a hate filled, self centered, pro death cause! Still recoiling in shock over your belief that 30 million humans murdered in their mothers womb was a good thing.
I would like to find one liberal who holds all conservatives to the standards Rev. Dave outline explain how those standards coexist with the sworn duty of liberalism to ensure abortion is allowed. It is clear that abortion has become the center piece of liberalism, to the extent that today the 1st thing a prospective judge is questioned about is their position on abortion. All the excuses, what if's and what abouts fly in the face of the reality that abortion is the ending of a human life in it's mothers womb. All the problems of racism, income inequality, housing, jobs, etc take a back seat to abortion. How depraved has liberalism become.
And my unconditional support to politicians is based on many things, the first being their stance on abortion, first and foremost because if human life is so cheap it's ok to be happy there are 30 million fewer humans, then our laws based on the value of human life have been cheapened and are worthless. The hallmark of a great civilization is not it's right to abort, but it's ability to allow humans to grow to be born and reach THEIR full potential.
Vern,
I'm glad you're finally discussing instead of deflecting. Good for you.
I already told you criminals should be judged.
No man and no government has the moral authority to punish someone for his religious, or non-religious beliefs. A state religion is anti-American by definition. Religious freedom, and freedom from religion, are built into the foundation of our Constitutional republic.
This is why we are better than theocratic Islamic states and Medieval Christian inquisitions. Maybe you don't love America and freedom as much as I do?
"Your conscience means nothing. And when you get down to it, that is where you and I have to part our ways. You don't get to set the rules, God does."
Every society sets rules. Isn't that what "law and order" are all about?
Is it not our conscience that tells us rules are just or not?
Is it not your conscience that abhors abortion? Because God and Jesus never mentioned it. I can even respect your voting for Republicans because they oppose abortion. What I cannot respect is the fact that party also represents the worst in humanity, with their greed, dishonesty, cruelty, hate, division, and racist suppression of democracy.
Is it not our conscience that guides us to follow moral and ethical laws and rules?
Is it not our conscience that guides us to follow the Ten Commandments and the Two Commandments?
These rules exist to strengthen our conscience and understanding of what is right and what is wrong, and what is kind and what is cruel.
"Your conscience means nothing." This is the creed of a sociopath, and authoritarians like Nazis and other tyrants and bullies. This is no different than saying "Your love and compassion mean nothing". It is absurd and dangerously antisocial and malevolent.
There is no virtue in following rules out of fear of punishment.
We do it because it is the moral, ethical, and right thing to do. It's the Golden Rule to "do unto others...".
Maybe you haven't figured this out yet.
You've heard the expressions, "He has a big heart", and "He is heartless".
These statements have nothing to do with the muscle that pumps our blood through our circulatory system. Heart is a metaphor for mind, conscience, love and compassion.
Here is an example:
2 Corinthians 4 says: "Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts to illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
We are commanded to love. Without a conscience, that which presents itself as love is as empty as lust, anger, fear and hate.
Rev.
"Every society sets rules. Isn't that what "law and order" are all about?"
I was talking about God judging you not society.
"Is it not our conscience that tells us rules are just or not?"
No, God sets the rules not mankind. If it were not so, what would be right in your mind could be wrong in mine and resulting in a conflict. Man is not the ultimate judge of what is right or wrong. God is.
"Is it not your conscience that abhors abortion? Because God and Jesus never mentioned it. I can even respect your voting for Republicans because they oppose abortion. What I cannot respect is the fact that party also represents the worst in humanity, with their greed, dishonesty, cruelty, hate, division, and racist suppression of democracy."
Show me in the Bible where murder (abortion) was not a sin. Racism is not mentioned in the Bible, but you sure like to bring it up as not Christian.
Imagine you are standing before God, it's judgment day, and God asks you "why should I allow you into my heaven" You gonna tell him you were pro choice because your conscience said it was ok, that you were opposed to greed, dishonesty, cruelty, hate,
division, etc. You think he's gonna let you into heaven because of these after he allowed his Son to die for you? Do you believe you can work you way to heaven?
It is clear to me that liberalism wants to replace God and humans dependence on Him with government programs, actions and dependence on Government. If only everyone was liberal like me, who thought like me, there would be no hate, division, racism, cruelty and no need for God, cause Government, under liberal control, would provide it all. Isn't that what you believe? Yet if history teaches us anything there will always be greed, dishonesty, cruelty, hate, division, and racism, that is the nature of man (all have sinned) and no laws will change that basic fact that humans are sinners.
So far you haven't expressed an understanding of what it means to be a Christian but instead seem bent on debating the political merits of what you believe liberalism holds. It simply boils down to this, what are you going to do with Jesus?
I see no reason to continue this until you acknowledge what Jesus did for you, that there is nothing more important in this world than His actions. What are you going to do with Jesus?
JTF, If abortion is murder then miscarriage is involuntary manslaughter, subject to criminal investigation.
And the Bible condones "murder" many times, even the killing of disobedient children. It also condones slavery.
What it doesn;t do is provide any actual evidence that any "god" exists.
nice try though, but you cannot be conservative and Christian at the same time. The ideals and values are diametrically opposed.
Mozart.
Any normal human would know the difference between abortion and a miscarriage. But then...
"And the Bible condones "murder" many times, even the killing of disobedient children." Provide sources.
Prove there is no God.
What makes a person a Christian?
Vern,
”What are you going to do with Jesus?”
I already told you. Follow His example and his two commandments. It’s about love for God and others. How about you?
it's judgment day, and God asks you "why should I allow you into my heaven"
God won’t need to interrogate me. Doesn’t he already know everything? I told you I stand ready to be judged.
In response to, "Every society sets rules. Isn't that what "law and order" are all about?", you said, ”I was talking about God judging you not society. If it were not so, what would be right in your mind could be wrong in mine and resulting in a conflict. Man is not the ultimate judge of what is right or wrong. God is.”
In this world laws and courts fairly or unfairly resolve such conflicts. It doesn’t do any good to say, ‘He thinks holding people in slavery and torturing them is OK. Let’s not do anything about it and let God judge later”. Is this your position?
"Is it not our conscience that tells us rules are just or not?"”No, God sets the rules not mankind.” Tell it to the judge.
Why do we need a conscience?
Does the Bible say abortion is murder? No.
Does the Bible say slavery is wrong? No.
Does the Bible say racism is wrong? No.
Does the Bible say torture is wrong? No.
Does the Bible say child abuse is wrong? No.
Does the Bible say spouse abuse is wrong? No.
Does the Bible say breaking windows is wrong? No.
Does the Bible say arson is wrong? No.
Since “Your conscience means nothing” then you are good with all of that? That would explain why you have no objections to racism, torture, and police brutality.
But for some reason property crimes infuriate you. Does the Bible say breaking windows and property destruction is wrong? No. YOU do. As do I, because I have a conscience. Why do YOU think it’s wrong? My conscience tells me all of the above are wrong. That is how we differ.
God gave us a brain and a conscience to decide right from wrong. You say abortion is murder. God didn’t. Your conscience tells you that. Other people’s conscience tell them it is wrong for the government to force women to bear the child of their rapist. This is why we have laws and courts.
My conscience tells me abortion is an unfortunate and difficult medical/personal choice that is none of my business. I do not promote it for birth control. I wouldn’t have an abortion, but I’m not a woman, who has no job and has been raped. You said it. It is for God to judge her, not YOU.
Vern: It is clear to me that liberalism wants to replace God and humans dependence on Him with government programs, actions and dependence on Government. If only everyone was liberal like me, who thought like me, there would be no hate, division, racism, cruelty and no need for God, cause Government, under liberal control, would provide it all. Isn't that what you believe?
No. This is what you are TOLD we believe, by Republicans. Like Trump, it is against their interests to be honest. But I do give you credit for framing it as a question. I’ve been writing what I think and believe for years. It’s all there if you care to read it.
It boils down to this:
Liberals and progressives believe in government of, by and for the people. We agree all men are created equal and value the founders’ ideal of consent of the governed. That means fair elections and proportional representation. Regardless of faith, or none at all, we support programs that reflect Christian and spiritual values like mercy and kindness in caring for the sick, feeding the poor, and support for the elderly. We want every able person to have a job that supports a decent standard of living. We want equal justice under law, and oppose bigotry and racism and belligerent nationalism. We support Constitutional taxes, regulation of commerce, and provision for the general welfare. We support the Bill of Rights, and that includes the right to bear arms, with reasonable regulations. (More liberals have firearms than you realize.)
You can find liberal values throughout the Bible. We want a government that reflects those values.
Proverbs addresses the rich: “Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed. Do not toil to acquire wealth; be discerning enough to desist. Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.”
Jesus mentioned the rich. “For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. You cannot serve God and money. Sell your possessions, and give to the needy.”
Jesus mentioned taxes. Pay them. “Render unto Caesar...”
None of these are Republican values.
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Thanks!!!
Having a hard time reconciling your claim that liberals do not want Government to replace dependence on God in light of their stance on Amy Coney Barrett and her faith. Maybe you can help.
Do liberals want to pay more taxes than are required/due from them?
Vern,
Thank you for making a good faith effort towards dialogue. Discussion is always better than slinging phrases back and forth.
I’m not sure what you mean, but I didn’t say “liberals do not want Government to replace dependence on God”. If there’s something you want clarified, let me know.
It is true many liberals, particularly women, are concerned they will lose their right to reproductive freedom with ACB added to the Court.
Abortion doesn’t reflect any values apart from a woman’s reproductive freedom. It’s not like liberals are out demanding abortions. I never did, and don’t know anyone who has.
Banning abortions is certainly government interference in personal rights to their bodies, family planning, and reproductive freedom. Too bad conservatives oppose sex ed and contraception as a healthcare benefit. That would go far to reduce unwanted pregnancies and abortions.
It’s preposterous to say billionaires and millionaires can’t afford to pay higher taxes. They did just fine when they paid more taxes, back when America was great.
It’s absurdly unfair that you and I have to pay more income tax than Trump and many corporations. Don't you agree?
If you want to make America great again, why not restore the progressive taxation that made us great before?
Many liberals are willing to pay higher taxes for expanded public healthcare, education, and infrastructure. These are for our Constitutional general welfare.
Many conservatives support Social Security and Medicare. You and I and millions of Americans are benefiting from those programs. Undocumented immigrants pay into these, but are not entitled to the benefits we are collecting.
Now Trump wants to end payroll taxes that go to Social Security and Medicare. If that happens, say goodbye to your monthly check.
Taxes are how we have the military, and police, and fire departments. These are also for our Constitutional general welfare.
Taxes also go to enforcing Constitutional regulation of commerce and environmental regulations.
This country has more wealth than any other, so let’s reduce infant mortality, expand life expectancy, educate and train our young, build roads and bridges, repair and update the electrical grid, tap more solar, wind, and hydro energy, etc.
None of this is communism. It just makes sense.
“liberals do not want Government to replace dependence on God”. should read liberals DO want government, etc.
"Abortion doesn’t reflect any values" is beyond my comprehension, it reflects a total lack of values, that a human life can be ended for no crime, without a trial and thought of as a right so is NOT a value. When a society fails to protect the most defenseless innocent of its population it lessens the value of all other of it's members. Abortion does just that.
"Too bad conservatives oppose sex ed and contraception as a healthcare benefit. That would go far to reduce unwanted pregnancies and abortions." You really need to update this claim cause it is a bit long in tooth and not factual today. Now if you are talking about homosexual sex ed, I would be opposed to teaching that, wouldn't you? Especially if one of the benefits of teaching sex ed is to reduce pregnancy, which doesn't happen often in homosexual relationships.
While liberals will take to the streets to hold onto this "right" to murder in the womb, because it is a "personal thing", they have no problem in taking by taxes things people have worked to have, as if all money belongs to government and government allows it's people to keep just some of it. Forgetting the fruits of ones labor is also a personal thing. Personal property is a vague concept for liberals, after all it's the governments anyway and you didn't earn it. It has always amazed me that liberals view the rich as bad unless they are liberal rich. Seems a bit inconstant to me.
The question I never can get an answer to is just how much money do liberals think is enough for a person to have? This surprises me as there are many rich liberals, yet they seem silent on how much more they should be paying in taxes. No one is stopping them from paying more if they are so moved, yet few if any do. So how much in taxes should Tom Steyer, Bill Gates, Joe Biden, B.H. Obama pay in taxes? Not the rate but amount?
We see now how great solar and wind energy sources have been for California with their rolling black outs due to a shortage of electricity. No thanks.
Keep in mind that under our Constitutional Federal system of govt, the power of govt is limited not the rights of the people. That's something I'm sure we can both agree to.
You know Rev. Dave, the real insight into how liberals feel abut paying taxes is how they reacted in the Blue states when the Trump tax cut plan limited their state and local deductions amount on their federal return...all at once they had to pay more for their services they had not paying their fair share for.
Vern,
I'm not going to bother addressing your highly inaccurate and broad generalizations from conservative talking points.
If liberals don't hate liberal rich people, then liberals don't "hate the rich", now, do they? MOST Americans agree the rich should pay more taxes. $750.00 from Trump is an insult to both of us.
I told you how most liberals feel. I'm sure you will dismiss it. You can keep buying the propaganda that has no reason to be honest. If you don't want to discuss any of the issues I named, fine. You can accept the truth or go back to the Right's misinformation, mischaracterization, and falsehoods.
I will tell you abortion is not murder. Look it up. Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. Legally life begins at birth. There is disagreement on when a zygote or embryo or a fetus becomes a person. Your new court will probably soon redefine these terms.
If you think simply banning abortion makes a government moral and just, then I have just the system for you: On October 10, 1936 Heinrich Himmler created the Reich Central Office for Combating Homosexuality and Abortion, or Special Office (II S), a sub-department of Executive Department II of the Gestapo.
We've gone as far as we can on abortion. Words are defined. I am pro-choice. I am not "pro-abortion". The same is true for most liberals. It's not my fault you can't understand the difference. We know where we stand. I'm happy to discuss any other matters above.
You know Rev. when you say this "I'm not going to bother addressing" I see no reason to continue our conversation. How pretentious of you.
"The question I never can get an answer to is just how much money do liberals think is enough for a person to have?"
This is an example. Some say a billion, some say not. So what? Who cares?
The discussion was about reasonable taxes for them. They did fine before and would do fine again. There's nothing to add. This is truth.
Now what did Jesus say about the rich?
Afraid to discuss it, aren't you?
See above.
So in other words, JTF/Anonymous cannot refute what Dave posted. AGAIN
Mozart
"I'm not going to bother addressing your highly inaccurate and broad generalizations."
Oh and in case you don't understand what I'm saying to you.
Piss on you!
He's devolved to 'Piss on you' as his master stroke retort. I'm just not sure how Mozart can come back from that one.
TB3
"I'm not going to bother addressing your as always highly inaccurate and broad generalizations"
No cares what you think do or say. Least of all me.
Piss off.
"...highly inaccurate and broad generalizations"
Aww.. He lifted some of my words to him again. How cute.
So much winning.
“Where am I going? Am I going this way?” a confused Joe Biden asked his staff after his event in Pennsylvania.
Also, note Joe Biden is not wearing a mask. pic.twitter.com/VlIYBSx9Vz
— Francis Brennan (@FrancisBrennan) October 10, 2020
Joe Biden did the same thing yesterday and the media didn’t say a word.
Biden was caught indoors on Friday – no social distancing, no face mask.
Another Biden tax increase on the middle class.
“Yes, I’d bring back the individual mandate,” says the 2020 Democratic presidential hopeful, arguing it would be popular now, “compared to what’s being offered.”
The Trump administration eliminated the individual mandate in 2017, effective the 2019 tax year.
The former vice president also says he supports providing emergency health care for undocumented immigrants. IE: FREE TO ILLEGALS.
"Illegals" are human beings. We know Nazis and other Trump lovers hate minorities.
Most countries offer free emergency health care for American tourists.
What kind of Christian would deny emergency treatment for any person?
Answer: Republican hypocrites and Fake or Trump "Christians".
Matthew 25:40-45
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
YAWN
"YAWN" for emergency medical treatment for everyone.
More "Trump Christian" and absence of compassion. Just like Jesus told them, amirite?
"I'm not going to bother addressing your as always highly inaccurate and broad generalizations Dave Dubya.
Vern:
"Abortion doesn’t reflect any values" is beyond my comprehension, it reflects a total lack of values, that a human life can be ended for no crime, without a trial and thought of as a right so is NOT a value."
If not for fetal stem cells for antibody meds that saved him, Trump would be dead.
Dead. Gone. Departed. Not Great. Nothing left but a trail of hate.
Vern: "I believe as a Christian, my reward in heaven will be based on my faithfulness to God's commands here on earth."
God commanded you to love, not hate. You're in trouble.
Vern's last words at the Pearly gates: “Your conscience means nothing”.
God: "Bye, Vern."
In the words of your IQ peer Mozart, "sources".
Dave Dubya "I'm not going to bother addressing your as always highly inaccurate and broad generalizations".
Works every time.
Clucky, the "individual mandate" forces RICH people to contribute to the healthcare plan making it CHEAPER in the long run for EVERYONE.
And yes, Dave and I are "IQ peers" because we are EDUCATED.
I realize that conservatives consider education "elitist", but "elite" means "best".
We want America to be the "best" country (which it has not been for a long while) and for that to happen we have to be EDUCATED.
Trump loves the UNEDUCATED because you are easier to fool and control.
The mandate forces EVERYONE to pay higher taxes.
The mandate makes healthcare CHEAPER for everyone, and you are leaving out the part where we GET A VALUABLE SERVICE FOR THE MONEY.
Do you get upset spending money for electricity or running water? IT'S MANDATORY THAT YOU HAVE IT IN YOUR HOME.
What about car insurance? MANDATORY. If you don;t have it you get fined.
And who do you think pays for the non insured that show up at "free" clinics and ERs?
THE TAXPAYERS.
Man you are dense.
Anonymous/Clucky
Man you cannot refute the facts I posted. Thanks for admitting it.
Trumps antibodies are being used to cure the "Rona" , the vaccine will be called Trumpicillin and everyone will get the vaccine and have a small amount of Trump injected into them to cure the Chinavirus. Its known side effects will be. Sudden urges to work. Ability to endure constant criticism without a safe place, increased testicular fortitude, and decreased estrogen levels in men. This is a medical miracle and will not only cure the "Rona" but also cure Democrapulingus!!!
Mozart would die before getting this vaccine.
"Trumpicillin"
LOL! Guaranteed to fix what ails ya!
Step right up folks, and feel that special Trump tingle up your leg. Praise his Exalted Highness on steroids, and rejoice in his life-saving antibody therapy derived from fetal stem cells.
(Side effects include habitual lies, boasts, weight gain, hair loss, and threats to imprison everyone not drinking the Trumpicillin Koolade.)
Sounds like you have already taken a dose.
Clucky, I know this is an unreasonable request, but can you post a SOURCE that "Trump's antibodies" are being used to cure the virus?
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