Thursday, December 15, 2011

We are the People of the Year

When FOX Noise got the word, they predictably hit the rhetorical roof. How dare they compare those filthy hippies in Zuccotti Park to the good people of the Arab Spring who are fighting for the rights that have been denied to them for too long! Uber-dunce Brian Kilmeade, one of the hosts of FOX and Friends, giddily noted that Time Magazine had in the past awarded the "Man of the Year" title to the likes of Josef Stalin and Adolf Hitler. It went right over the head of this jackass that the title "person of the year" is not necessarily a judgement of someone's "niceness", but rather that person's capacity as a news-maker. That's why the Ayatolla Khomeini was named Time's 1979 Man of the Year - and not the cast of One Day at a Time. What an idiot.

I am the person of the year. So are you.

You don't
have to be down in Zuccotti Park. You don't have to be on the streets of Oakland, California or Madison, Wisconsin or Austin, Texas or South Bend, Indiana. You won't have to be out in Ulme Park in Poughkeepsie, NY this afternoon at 4 PM in order to be a part of this movement. That's why the worldwide Occupy movement is so frightening, not only to the corporate media, but to our "rulers" as well. Jello Biafra (photo left) is the former lead singer of the legendary political punk band The Dead Kennedys. He is today a lecturer who has released a number of spoken-word CD's on his Alternative Tentacles record label . Ten years ago, in a statement that is truly sunning in hindsight, he advised us, "Don't criticize the media, become the media!" A decade ago his words left some of us scratching our clueless heads. Today we know what he was talking about. We are the media. The revolution is being televised!

Thank you, Steve Jobs.

The order is rapidly fading. We are no longer reliant on the three-network-monte game for our news and information. It's no longer just the cab
le news channels that corner the market of ideas. The old media is now almost irrelevant. You and I are now the nightly news. You and I are now Huntley and Brinkley. You and I are now the managing editors of this broadcast. ABC, NBC and CBS no longer hold all the cards. Although I do miss the Ed Sullivan Show - I gotta tell ya.

With our laptops and our iPhones we are grabbing this country by the lapels and shaking it back into consciousness. Fifty years ago all we had to rely on were a handful of antique mimeograph machines. This is something else entirely. This is an information revolution. Will the plutocracy try to shut us down? Maybe. They'll never know what hit them if they do though. Yesterday Mitch McConnell was threatening - once again - to shut the government down. That's nothing! We can shut this entire country down if we want to. I know we can do it, too. They may have the money; we've got the numbers. Power to the people, ya dig? This is for keeps, baby! We are the media. We are their worst nightmare come-to-life a thousandfold. We are tens-of-millions of Hunter Thompsons risen from the dead. Wow! Just picture that! That's what I call a Ralph Steadman sketch waiting to happen! Ralph???

I've had enough of reading things
By NEU-rotic, PSY-chotic, pig-headed politicians
All I want
is some truth!
Just gimme some truth!

-John Lennon

Get the message out. You don't need to be a rock star or a journalist or a reporter or a poet
laureate. You don't need to be a bestselling author or a Nobel Prize-winning scientist or an Oscar-winning actor. You don't need to be Rachel Maddow, Michael Moore or Noam Chomskey or Keith Olbermann (although it helps). You don't need to own a computer. You don't even need access to one. Spread the message the old fashioned way: Write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper. I had one published
just last week. And if all of the above fail, go to your nearest mountaintop and shout the truth from there!

"How lo
ng? NOT LONG!"

-Martin Luther King

These are the salad days of a movement that is going to turn America - and the planet earth - around. How long it will take is anybody's guess; but I cannot help but be inspired by the good Doctor King's words. I'm also reminded of Supreme Court Justice Lois Brandeis when he said that America will either have one of two things: extreme income inequality or democracy. It cannot - it will not - have both. Yeah. We're gonna have democracy alright. You can take that to the bank. On second thought, stuff it under the mattress. It's probably safer there.

You want all the proof you need that we are now living in a plutocratic dictatorship? Here it is:

Just suppose for a minute that I was the supervisor of a small village somewhere in upstate New York. I once ran for supervisor of Goshen so we'll make that our hypothetical location. Now imagine that at a Town Hall meeting one night, I cheerfully announced to the hardworking citizens of that lovely little burg that I had "misplaced" a hundred-thousand dollars in taxpayer money - their money. What do you think would happen to me? They would drag me out of the place in handcuffs. They would then hang me from the nearest tree. Come to think about it, that's probably what would have happened eventually. I'm awfully glad I lost that election. Honestly.

Now picture this if you will: Just a few days ago, former New Jersey Governor and billionaire John Corzine admitted to a panel of lawmakers that the investment firm that he was the head of "misplaced" over a billion dollars in investors' money. Now just what the hell do you think happened to him? He was allowed to walk out of the place, free as a freakin' bird. Does it puzzle you just a tad that no one from Goldman Sachs is not at this moment rotting in federal prison - or has even been brought up on charges??? We're living under a plutocratic dictatorship. Open your eyes. Take action NOW.

Wasn't deregulation a really neat idea? And they say they can't understand our rage? HELLO???

The Democrats in general - and President Obama in particular - would be foolish to try and capitalize on this rage. If they had bothered to remember a long time ago that they are (or were) the party of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and had had the guts to stand up to the right wing extremism of the last three decades, we probably wouldn't be brow-deep in the economic quagmire we find ourselves in today. That worthless party is within five years of finding themselves where the Republicans are at this moment; beyond redemption. If they know what's good for them they'll clean up their act - pretty damned quick. They have got to stop nominating these pathetic, right wing Blue Dogs. Otherwise, within the next five years a new party will emerge from the wreckage of their incompetence and indifference.

This week the spokespersons for the plutocracy have been predicting the end of the movement which is now engulfing the world. The joke's on them. I really hate to be quoting the Carpenters here but Frank Zappa doesn't have anything apropos for this particular moment: "We've only just begun".

Everybody sing!! "SHARING HORIZONS THAT ARE NEW TO US!!!" I'm sorry. I'll stop.

See you at the occupation, kiddies!

Tom Degan
Defeated 2000 Candidate for Supervisor of Goshen, New York
tomdegan@frontiernet.net

SUGGESTED READING:

Lincoln at Gettysburg
by Gary Wills

"....and that government - of the people, by the people, for the people - shall not perish from the earth."

Imagine that.

AFTERTHOUGHT:

I'm not the only person ranting out there in cyberspace, folks. Here is a link to a new blog by a guy named Bryan Raines. It ain't too shabby:

Time to Rant

It's time for all of us to do some serious ranting. Seriously.

Please, join me on Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/tomdegan

Cheers!

52 Comments:

At 8:49 AM, Anonymous Bryan Raines said...

Next year's TIME person of the year award will go to the Kardashains.

I have stopped paying attention to TIME covers ever since they posted Bin Laden's head on the cover with a line striking through it. Rejoicing over the death of a figure head is fine with me, rejoicing over a person's death is not.

So yeah... not a fan of TIME magazine anymore.

 
At 10:28 AM, Anonymous boltok said...

OWS is a Axelrod/US Union production and Obama owns TIME and the MSM. Of course, Time picked the Protester. These are the lazy, angry socialists/communists Obama considers his base, and Ears is headed into an election year. Time is Obama's personal propaganda rag:

http://gawker.com/5132191/time-nears-completion-of-every-possible-obama-cover-variation


In 2008 Obama was the POS; I mean POY.

JG, where for art thou? Jug Ears is doubling down on Gitmo, detentions and defecating on due process.

 
At 12:12 PM, Blogger Patricia said...

Awe inspiring rant! Love all the music references, Dead Kennedy's a nice touch. Looks like we all have to join up and join in to get out of the mess this country is in. Just sayin'

 
At 4:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And what did our protesters accomplish?


NOTHING

 
At 6:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yawn

 
At 8:24 PM, Anonymous Pete Dermigny said...

Dear Tom

Time person of the year lost me when they didn't give
Julian assange the title last year. "the protestors" is pretty bogus . This whole giving it to groups of people is so lazy. I think one year they gave it to "the Internet user " or some
Crap like that. They need to get back to giving it to dictators.

 
At 8:59 PM, Blogger Tom Degan said...

Hey, Pete!

You make a good point there, Buster. Quite frankly I thought your uncle should have been named but what the heck do I know.

When are you coming to Goshen?

All the best,

Uncle Tom....Damn. I just gave myself away.

 
At 11:52 PM, Anonymous John said...

'Frank Zappa doesn't have anything apropos for this particular moment'

Oh Yea?

 
At 11:58 PM, Blogger Tom Degan said...

Ah yes, John. "I am the Slime"

I stand corrected!

Cheers!

Tom

 
At 3:10 PM, Blogger Ellis D., Esq. said...

This year The Protester, next year The Revolutionary ?? That is the direction we are headed as a result of the dysfunctional government we have been cursed with. I don't know how anyone can listen to Bonehead, Cuntor and McConjob and not want to run them out of D.C. on a rail !!!!

 
At 10:44 AM, Anonymous Earl Degan said...

Tom,

You should have been on the cover for doing your fabulous impersonation of Richard Nixon!

All the best,
Uncle Earl

 
At 11:07 AM, Anonymous Just The Plain Truth said...

America isn't a land divided by the 99 percent and the 1 percent. It's a land divided by those who earn their success day after day and those who don't. This class distinction has nothing to do with how rich or poor you are. It has everything to do with what kind of person you are.


Who doesn't earn their success? Here are some examples:

Most lottery winners. Someone who earns barely above the minimum wage shouldn't be gambling. When he wins, his success has nothing to do with merit.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives who gambled on subprime mortgages because of a taxpayer-backed advantage. They represent all too-big-to-fail constituencies. Their success -- connected as it is to Washington -- is divorced from merit.

The teacher who enjoys a security she knows the parents of her students don't enjoy. When success is divorced from merit in the classroom, we all lose.

The chief executive who drives a public company into the ground and receives a multimillion-dollar severance package. Everyone knows that's just plain wrong.

The young woman who knows that having a baby out of wedlock brings with it a host of government-benefits. There's not much merit in feeding your child with taxpayers' money.

The son of a multimillionaire who lives off his dad's wealth. Spoiled rich kids are among the biggest wastes of money in America these days: They consume vast sums and produce little. Some of them have even been found amid Occupy Wall Street protesters. Their parents do America a great disservice by severing the tie between success and merit.

Earned success has nothing to do with where you land on the income scale.

 
At 11:16 AM, Anonymous Just The Plain Truth said...

Is it simply a coincidence that the vast majority of localities with sky-high tax rates, while simultaneously teetering on bankruptcy due to ever higher spending, are run by liberal democrats? Maryland, New York, California - all liberal meccas, have very similar problems: the people who can afford to leave (the ones paying the highest amount of taxes) are fleeing for responsible states. Meanwhile the liberal run states are trying to figure out how to pay for their excesses by taxing their ever expanding illegal alien populations.

 
At 11:59 AM, Blogger joe said...

just the plain truth you are successful and you do deserve merit thanks for trolling this blog

 
At 4:06 PM, Anonymous Just On Crack said...

joe, are you joe the plumber by chance?

 
At 4:25 PM, Anonymous boltok said...

JTPT
You of course are correct. For the most part, right to work states with low spending have better economic standing accross the board: employment, gdp per head, house price stability.

Liberals make the argument that you can jack up the taxes on the wealthy because they won't leave due to property, friends, schools, and their existing jobs. This is true in the short term and holds for many. But many people rich and not leave when the opportunity presents itself. College kids leave these states. Wealthy leave these states when kids go to school or when they retire. Equally as bad as departures is that no is moving into these areas. What you end up with is liberal death spiral where you have the worst of politicians pandering for power from those that they keep down.

I recently read that in the last decade over 300,000 people left California to live in, of all places, Oklahoma. They certainly didn't move there for the scenery.

 
At 5:30 PM, Anonymous Just The Plain Truth said...

boltek,

Just look at Jefferson Guardian's nemesis on Dave's blog, free0352.

free0352 saw how the liberals destroyed his hometown of Detroit and pretty much all of Michigan and knew it was time to get out of town.

With the liberals in charge of Detroit, it has become a big shi*hole!

 
At 8:38 PM, Anonymous James said...

It never fails to amaze me when a group on Conservatives get together and blames every problem in the world on Liberals. They never heard of Bush? They do not know that Conservative politics are the driving force behind almost all the actions and direction of our government? That Obama has continued and expanded on all the Bush policies?

Why do Conservatives bullshit themselves that Republicans are perfect and without blame? Is there a single solitary Conservative in this whole damn country that has the courage to admit Republicans helped fuck up this country also, I wonder.

 
At 7:31 AM, Anonymous boltok said...

James,
I am sick of hearing Bush. It will be the year 3012 and you jackasses will still be claiming it is all Bush's fault.

Did you see Jon Corizine get served with papers this week.

Mudd and Syron from Fannie/Freddie were served by the SEC this week. Both liberals in liberal institutions.

Tell me what exactly Bush did. How does one man spending most of his time on a mountain bike in Crawford, Texas ruin everything that is good in the world. Anyone who used Bush as their goto excuse is a moron by definition. I could dump a truck of info on how dems destroy everything they touch.

Obama will kill Keystone as an example as he loses 10's of billions on baseless solar technology companies run by Kennedy's and donors, as an example.

 
At 12:49 AM, Blogger Dearest Friend said...

It never ceases to amaze me in reading these comments - and it never fails. Anytime you talk about what people earn and their success - somehow, someway, teachers come up. Apparently according to most comments I've seen from the conservatives, most teachers are just there for a pay check and do nothing to earn it. Any of you who are saying that KNOW a teacher? Have you asked them how the children in their schools are?
How some of them worry that the kids they teach didn't get a decent meal before they came to school that morning or their clothes aren't warm enough to get them through the winter?

Ever ask them how much support they get from the people that are amusingly enough "support staff"? That most teachers now have to purchase their own supplies? (The kids do too - right down to their pencils!) How most of them have to go through metal detector every morning on their way into the building they work - and even then, they're not safe?

They also have to worry if the kids are learning the basics AND in a lot of cases are now responsible for teaching the kids basic manners and good behavior - manners and behavior skills should be taught by the parents - not the teacher - but it ends up being her/his job much of the time these days.

Please, don't put the teachers down...until they are as appreciated as the guy who just set a record playing football and makes 26 million a year. How many lives is he REALLY going to touch in his life?

A teacher at any level of education from pre-school through college professors need to be appreciated more and put down less. Yes, there are a some teachers who can't teacher - but guess what? There's people who are lousy at their jobs all over the business world! There are even lousy football players who are earning more money then I'll ever see!

Let the teachers teach - someday, the child they teach may do great things and when they are awarded for their accomplishments - who will they thank? THEIR TEACHERS!!

 
At 3:20 AM, Blogger Catharine said...

According to last year's census, every second person in this country is living at or near the poverty level, due to the crashing economy and skyrocketing unemployment. Meanwhile, Fortune 500's CEOs made approximately 36.5% more in salary, bonuses and benefits last year than the year before.

Apparently, rich people in this country need a little history lessen in what happens to countries that allow the chasm between "have" and "have not" to grow to wide. And it always starts with protests. And every protest starts with the detractors claiming that the protests do nothing, or are populated by lazy malcontents, or have no proper agenda or message.

It happened with Selma, it happened with the university protests against the Vietnam War, it happened when women protested to abolish laws allowing spousal rape and forbidding women from having financial independence.

Yet all of those protests were effective ways of drawing attention and directing action toward problems that needed to be fixed.

50% of the American population is approaching or currently living in poverty. America is now officially an empire in rapid decline.

~A~

 
At 7:20 AM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dearest Friend and Catharine; greater truths cannot be said.

Wishing you both, along with the thousands of unselfish teachers and committed demonstrators - who are increasingly under-appreciated in our society - the very best during this holiday season.

 
At 7:24 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have NO kind thoughts left! This is the beginning of the end. The next faise will be worse when we are all under complete control with MIT nono-bots leading the way. How we react today will "prove" how much we need to be controlled tomorrow [for our own well being]! Thanks Ted for trying, but your only seeing the tip of the iceburg!

 
At 11:58 AM, Blogger Chris said...

How Long? Not Long. Is one of my favorite MLK speeches. Good job Tom.

 
At 1:01 PM, Anonymous Just the Facts! said...

"every second person in this country is living at or near the poverty level"

I wonder how this correlates with the near 50% of Americans who pay no Federal Income tax?

 
At 2:03 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

I spent 5 years well below the poverty line. It was called college. I didn’t borrow $100,000 either. In fact, I didn’t borrow a nickel. I earned scholarship and I worked. We definitely have economic issues and challenges – no disagreement there – but nearly every other generation in the history of this country has as well. What’s unique (and epidemic) in our case is a severe lack of moral fiber and backbone. The next couple of generations coming up are soft – no other way to put it. America is in decline because of the decay of the family, the decay of commonly held values, and the decay of morals. The American dream is a misunderstood axiom and is being misapplied for political reasons.

“Politics is the opiate of the people”

 
At 3:12 PM, Blogger Ellis D., Esq. said...

No Harley, Amerika is in decline because of the greed of the 1 % PERIOD. The only things soft are the skulls of the morons running our government. Don't blame the poor brainwashed sheeple who are at the mercy of ruthless, ethically challenged psychopaths. No other time in our history have we faced this perfect storm of greed, corruption, ignorance and stupidity that is the face of Amerika today. Put a fork in Amerika, it's done. BTW....RELIGION is the true opiate of the people.

 
At 3:32 PM, Anonymous Victor David said...

Hola Just The Plain Truth aka Just The Facts -

I agree with some of your assertions in regard to success vs. merit but you're going to get a sprain making the stretch to lottery winners and unwed mothers. Methinks you been smoking too much Fox News or related opiate.

Lottery winners don't make up much of our population. Kind of a sideshow group to pick on. And what makes you so sure lotto tickets are only for minimum wage workers?

You really think unwed mothers are going "Yum yum. Think I'll have to kid to make some free dough."? Ever hear of a plain old bad choice without premeditation? It happens in the real world that exists in.. well.. the real world. (There might be a signpost outside the TV)

And teachers? WTF? Oh, yeah, think I'll get me a cush-cush thankless job as a teacher raking in the dimes. Yes, indeed, Yes, just kick back in an overcrowded classroom and watch those dozens of dollars roll in.

Please. The US has some real problems, agreed. And some of the things you say are correct. But you are mistaken to say that the major divide is between the will-do and the won't-do.

No, the problem is that the government (if that's what we ought to continue to call it) and hence society (as an overall concept) is no longer working for the people in general. Government is struck in a loop, perpetually pleasing those with the money to re-elect (quaint word, sorry) it. The people have been tossed to the side for a very long time and are getting god-damn sick and tired of the one rule for them and one rule for us way of doing things.

I hope you will continue to bring up interesting points. But seriously, there's more to the world than the bubble.

 
At 6:35 PM, Blogger Nance said...

"...a movement that is going to turn America - and the planet earth - around."

Your optimism is infectious, Tom. We pull each other up when one of us begins to sink.

 
At 7:15 PM, Anonymous Just the Facts! said...

Victor, I have no idea what you mean. My statement is simple, could you comment on that?

 
At 10:07 PM, Anonymous Victor David said...

Well, I already did [comment]. Yes, there's some typos. Meant to say "have a kid" not "have to kid" (totally changes the meaning, sorry about that) and "government is stuck" (not "struck").

Hope that helps, but to tell you the truth, I've seen you reply in much the same manner before (that is, "What did you say?" and "Why didn't you answer me?", etc. when people reply at length to your posts) so it probably won't. Help, that is. Oh, well.

Meanwhile, Feliz Navidad everyone!! And thanks for the blog, Tom. Always fun, informative, entertaining, and musical.

 
At 12:08 AM, Blogger Dearest Friend said...

Thank you, J.G., for your kind words. I proof-read what I wrote late last night when I was tired and guess what I discovered? I made some horrid grammatical mistakes and left out words all over the place as well!

I have to say the other under-appreciated and slowly become an endangered profession is nursing! Nurses who have been nurses for a while now will tell you that the job they do today isn't what they wanted to do, dreamed of doing or were trained to do. I hear nurses tell me all the time that they want to be nurses again - not computer experts, not baby sitters and not administrative assistants. They want to CARE for the people they've been asked to care for...and oh, yeah, I guess they make too much money too! They are worth their weight in gold, every single one of them. As my best friend who is an R.N. will tell you, "Nurses keep doctors from killing you!" HA!

 
At 8:13 AM, Anonymous boltok said...

HarleyA,
I did something similar. I had virtually no money but decided to get an education. I studied and worked non stop to complete 2 years at the nearest state college while living at home and borrowed virtually nothing. Transferred to a highly regarded academic institution that did not have a time on campus requirment. Complete my degree in two semester (18-20) credit per semester and two summer sessions. Ended with 30 grand in debt. I took a few liberal arts classes in stuff I liked. A couple each of history, art, and philosopy. The rest was economics and hard math. I knew there was a market for the numerate.

The academic institutions are exceedingly greedy today. They know full well they are screwing these students. Many students loading up on debt are foolish and feel entitled. We are supposed to feel sorry for both.

I guess I wasn't smart enough to run up a quarter million in debt studying ancient greek and the economics of voting myself other peoples money.

Harley, regardless of what happens to you in life, you will always have positive self esteem. You know you have the ethic to advance yourself. Most of these liberal types have no idea about such things.

 
At 3:45 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Harley A., you claim...

"America is in decline because of the decay of the family,..."

Perhaps universal healthcare, complete with dental rider, would benefit. [gentle sarcasm]

"...the decay of commonly held values,..."

"Commonly held", as in what, exactly?

"...and the decay of morals."

I certainly hope you're referring to the "decay of morals" among the top 1%, in particular the criminal banking syndicate that continues to ride the crest of unregulated financial laws, allowing them to create and exploit trillions of dollars worth of unsecured derivatives, the worst of which are poised to implode at any time -- making the recession of 2008 look like a cakewalk.

I'm hoping that's the "decay of morals" that annoys you the most, just as it annoys those of us who are actively involved in the Occupy movement.

 
At 4:48 PM, Blogger Suzan said...

Gee, Tom,

I thought that was what I had been doing for the last five+ years.

Just awaiting my audience to catch up with my aspirations.

Love ya,

S

become the media!

 
At 10:41 AM, Blogger Harley A. said...

JG - The decay in the morals of the “1%” is indicative of and commensurate with the general decay in morals of the nation as a whole. So, no, I don’t hold the “1%” as any more or less to blame than the rest. Again, if you teach people that there is no absolute moral standard, you will reap exactly what we have reaped – at all levels of society. All you have to do is tune in to our television programming to get a really good idea as to what the American people are about – hedonism, barbarism, immorality, ignobility, selfishness. Keep harping on the 1% - makes no difference to me. I don’t disagree the morals have declined at the top. But, to continue to focus on them to the exclusion of the rest of the problem will do little to help. If you take all their money and hand it out perfectly among the altruistic (sarcasm) masses, you will have solved NOTHING. We simply disagree.

Ellis – Basically, Marx was talking about Christianity in his “opiate of the masses” statement. Couple of problems with the statement. First, anyone who truly understands what Christ taught and what it means to follow Him will know that it is no opiate. If false, it may be delusional, but it cannot be called an opiate. To do so shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of Christianity. Second, if the God of Christianity does indeed exist, then it is atheism that is weak – and truly an opiate for the deluded – no?

 
At 1:55 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Harley A., you replied with...

"...if you teach people that there is no absolute moral standard, you will reap exactly what we have reaped – at all levels of society."

That's because there is no absolute moral standard. There never has been. Your sense of morality is different than mine; mine's different than that of somebody else, etc., etc., etc. Moral standards are guidelines, depending upon far too many factors and circumstances to go into here. I'm not a believer in absolutism, of any kind, which is undoubtedly why I reject any and all formalized religious belief.

"If you take all their money and hand it out perfectly among the altruistic (sarcasm) masses, you will have solved NOTHING."

Here's where you, and almost all conservatives, totally misinterpret the message of, for instance, the Occupy movement. Nobody calls for taking all of anybody's money; never have and never will. But, we do call for economic and social justice, via democratic processes, which have eroded miserably over the course of the last few decades. I hesitate to continue, because frankly, it's obvious I'd be wasting my time.

One additional point while it's on my mind, however: I yearn for the day when there was a movement within Christianity, specifically the Roman Catholic Church, when it stood behind the worker, the peasant, i.e., the common "man". That day disappeared when money became more important than truth and justice. Unfortunately, Christianity has been bought and sold just like the politicians. It's a shame, but the power of money corrupts even those who claim a higher allegiance. That is absolute.

 
At 3:04 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

JG –

“That's because there is no absolute moral standard.”

Careful. That sounds an awful lot like an absolute assertion regarding morality. That there is no standard in itself sets a standard. You may categorically reject morality, but you cannot say that everyone makes up his/her own morality – that ceases to be morality. Morality, like truth, is an absolute proposition. If you reject absolute truth, you reject morality per se.


“…we do call for economic and social justice”

Ok, so no absolute morality. Where to you get your “justice”? On what basis do you judge the “1%” or the corporatists or the “plutocracy” or anyone? Why doesn’t the evil corporatist have just as much right to his brand of morality as you? Don’t go to enlightenment-grade social contract theory. When you boil it down, you’ve nothing left but an absolute moral standard at the bottom. It’s the only thing that can support it. Without it, social contract theory collapses.


“I hesitate to continue, because frankly, it's obvious I'd be wasting my time.”

I agree.

 
At 3:15 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Harley A., you replied with...

"I agree."

Therefore, end of discussion.

 
At 11:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

JG
Show me a place were murder is morally ok

 
At 3:55 AM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

By definition, murder ("homicide") is not okay. But, if you want me to recite instances where "killing" is deemed "okay" (by societal norms) that's easy.

 
At 10:40 AM, Blogger Harley A. said...

Anonymous -

I can. If you've not been born yet, it has been deemed okay by "progressive" thinkers.

 
At 11:10 AM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Harley A., to be fair, according to the Supreme Court of the United States, that's not true. Until, and when, that decision's overturned, it's not even considered killing.

I'm not claiming whether this is right or wrong, but it does support my supposition that absolutism is cultural at best.

 
At 12:27 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

"that's not true"

"I'm not claiming whether this is right or wrong"

How do you allow yourself to use such language? Those are absolute terms.

 
At 12:55 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Harley A., you said...

"How do you allow yourself to use such language? Those are absolute terms."

Possibly because, in the first case, I was referring to what the Supreme Court claims -- not me. In the second, it proves I don't live in a universe that causes me to have to look at every issue as either black or white, wrong or right, or, as in your case, moral or immoral.

I live in a universe with various shades of gray. You ought to try it sometime. It's very liberating!

 
At 1:40 PM, Anonymous Just the Facts! said...

JG,
Let's review your position again that all values are relative to the holder.
So murder, or homicide is not an approved value in any society, even a Marxist society? Note that Anon didn't say killing but murder, it was you that brought the concept of killing into the debate for what reason, only you know.

How about sex with a dead person, is that an ok value in any society? Or an under age child? Or kidnapping, is that an accepted behavior in any society ?

You see JG, your position that there never has been a complete absolute moral standard is full of holes. I'm surprised you took this position with out giving it more thought, that is not like you.

 
At 2:16 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

"I don't live in a universe that causes me to have to look at every issue as either black or white, wrong or right, or, as in your case, moral or immoral."

How do you know?

 
At 3:38 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Harley A., you asked...

"How do you know?"

How do I know "what"?

 
At 3:56 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

That "[you] don't live in a universe that causes [you] to have to look at every issue as either black or white, wrong or right, or, as in your case, moral or immoral."

 
At 6:42 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Intuitively I know -- through my spiritual self...something beyond the five physical senses.

How do you know, and why do you think, moral absolutism is absolute?

 
At 3:05 PM, Blogger Harley A. said...

Many ways. Logic - reason cannot function without absolutes and becomes incoherent. Testament of natural laws that are absolute - always. Testament of their Creator who teaches that there is absolute truth in the metaphysical as well as physical realms.

Your statement of knowledge seems to me to be an absolute statement, though self-refuting, but perhaps I misunderstand.

Anyway, we've probably beat it to death and are boring the rest. Good debate.

I absolutely wish you a Merry Christmas!

 
At 6:12 PM, Blogger Jefferson's Guardian said...

Harley, I'm not even sure anyone is following. They've moved on to Tom's next topic, I'm sure.

Wishing you a safe and joyous Christmas also...

 

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